In another thread, Shane and Bravus opened the question of how elements came into existance in the first place.

This is an area where literal Genesis Christians and modern science need not disagree.

The science that went into building the Atom Bomb in WW-II and the study of their explosions after WW-II taught us a lot about how "the elements" are formed out of more primitive stuff.

The name "element" is a bad one - it comes from a time when the alchemists / early chemists believed that they could not be further broken down - before the discovery of proton, electrons, and neutrons, and before the modern "nucleus of protons and neutrons with a surrounding layer of electrons" model was developed.

Now we understand that it is possible for a 'mist' of protons and neutrons and electrons to 'form droplets' of Hydrogen, and that the Hydrogen droplets will in turn be pulled together by gravity to make stars, and those stars are hot and dense enough to cause nuclear fusion, and that fusion will produce some of the elements that we know - and will also cause huge nuclear explosions that will produce the other elements.

Our understanding and maths and computers are good enough that we can predict what proportion of iron, aluminium, lead, oxygen, silicon, etc would come out of this process - and the prediction matches what we see in the universe around us.

The maths and computers also predicts the microwave radiation background - and indeed it was predicted before it was found.

All this started way before the events in Genesis - and before life of Earth. Yet we can still see much of it happening in the universe.

As I have told my kids - it appears God really likes explosions!

/Bevin

And where did the protons, neutrons and electrons come from?

It is also possible, even likely, tht God said, "Let there be light" and spoke the stars into existance.

At some point things are there because they are - because God made them (Christians) or "just because" (atheists).

We agree that God started everything.
We agree that God sustains everything.

I don't understand why you need God to have created whole stars rather than creating a big-bang.

/Bevin

Jesus spoke and dead men came to life. Jesus spoke and the storm became calm. Jesus spoke and crippled men were able to walk. There is creative power in just the voice of God. The Apostle John calls Jesus the "Word" and says, "all things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

The disciples were awestruck when Jesus spoke to the storm and it obeyed Him. They said, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!" That is the same kind of awe we should have as we explore science. Protons, neutrons and electrons didn't just randomly evolve out of nothing and bump into each other, form a big star and than blow up. The ultimate Intelligence designed them and spoke them into existance.

Evolutionists that insist on being honest with themselves are giving into the idea of Intelligent Design. As they learn more about the complexity of the universe on a grand scale and DNA on a micro-scale their honesty requires them to admit it couldn't have happened all at random. Advancements in knowledge are causing more doubt for natural selection than support of it.

While many secular scientists haven't got off the ice altogether, they have backed away from where it is cracking and observe water is evident.

The Bible does provide us information on this question. Here is a reference from the Psalms:

"By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth:

For He spake, and it was done: He commanded, and it stood fast."

Somewhere else in Scripture, we read that God will change the heavens as a garment. I don't recall exactly where that is.

Seems pretty clear. But, I have a question for Bravus: Do you believe that God is capable of doing that? Is God able to instantly create stars, galaxies, etc., to set them in motion, and to create the laws of physics?

Dave

Nobody is claiming that protons etc evolved.

As far as we can tell, the current laws controlling the behavior of subatomic particles have been constant throughout the visible universe.

And, yes, that does suggest to me a God behind it all, who created the laws and who created and sustains the particles following those laws.

However, when we look at the universe, it is obvious that it is not standing still. We see super-novas, we see galaxies colliding, we see everything swirling around - like I said, God seems very fond of fire-works.

/Bevin

Absolutely - I said so in the other thread. God is infinite and omnipotent, and can do literally anything that He (not just we) can imagine. He could have created stars and galaxies instantly, in the form of stars and galaxies, or he could have initiated the Big Bang and created the laws of nature in that instant, then allowed the universe to grow. Either is miraculous, either leaves God in his role as Creator. All the astronomical evidence suggests that he did the latter... but if we apply the 'created mature' argument then the evidence makes it impossible to distinguish between these possibilities.

Neither contradicts the Genesis account, unless it is read as saying that the Sun, moon and stars were literally created in creation week, less than 10,000 years ago.

and, unlikely the situation on Earth where the fossils make it look like death was present, it makes no theological or practical difference whether the stars were made a long time ago, or made more recently looking like they were made a long time ago.

For what it is worth, the Spirit of Prophecy says God created many other worlds before He created the earth. So it would logically follow that if that were true, He would have created stars for those worlds too.

True enough. And perhaps that is where the matter may rest.



The Genesis account says that He created the sun and moon on the fourth day of Creation week. It seems to indicate that the stars were already in existence. The idea of God's creating the sun, even mature, AFTER He created a planet that orbits around the sun, would seem incomprehensible and so obvious a violation of the laws of physics, and of basic common sense, as to be laughable--EXCEPT for the possibility that God Himself held the planets in orbit prior to His creation of the sun. After all, He created light before He created the sun, and the atmosphere before He created the sun. Couldn't He, as well, have sustained this planet before He created the sun? He is the omnipotent God.

It would seem reasonable to this student to conclude that God did things 'outside the box' when He created this world. Since He created the laws of physics, He is also able to bypass the laws of physics. But that would be beyond our comprehension. And THAT, I submit, is the rub when it comes to scientists, who want to quantify everything! Since they cannot understand how it could happen, then they conclude that it must not have happened! I propose, my dear professor, that God is greater than our box. And I recall God's words to Moses, when that worthy observed another violation of physical law, a bush burning but not being consumed, 'Take off thy shoes from off thy feet: for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground."

Dave