Gal 3:23 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith [Jesus] came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith [Jesus] should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith [Jesus] has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

"In Christ" the human race has been saved. It doesn't matter what class you belong to (Male/female, Jew/Greek, slave/free) the only way to heaven is "in Christ" accepted by faith.

That's the context!

Rob

Ellen White did not have authority over the GC men.

Please offer evidence or proof that Ellen White received "a full pastors salary"?

Her leadership in the SDA church was as a prophetess or "messenger of God," never as a pastor or minister. Please see below:

1) Did Ellen White ever refer to herself as a pastor or minister or elder? Didn't she refuse to be called a leader of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Didn't she say the following?--"No one has ever heard me claim the position of leader of the denomination....I am not to appear before the people as holding any other position than that of a messengeer with a message"-- Testimonies for the Church, 8: 236-237.

2) The Bible makes a clear distinction between prophet and pastor, and Ellen White never sought for nor was given the role of pastor or elder. A prophet is chosen and commissioned (ordained) by God alone. A pastor or elder is an elected office. A pastor or minister is an administrative and executive authority, whereas a prophet is God's mouthpiece.

3) A Signs of the Times editorial, 1878, said, "A woman may pray, prophecy, exhort, and comfort the church, but she cannot occupy the position of a pastor or a ruling elder. This would be looked upon as usurping authority over the man, which is here [1 Tim. 2:12] prohibited." Obviously this editorial, written at the time when James White was editor, would not have been printed if Ellen White was an ordained pastor.

4) See Scriptural evidence: 1 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:6; 1 Tim 2:11 ff; 1 Cor. 14:34,35. The Bible must remain our sole rule of faith and doctrine.

A lot of Un Christian beliefs and practices cause people to leave the Church and even Christianity. It is a real shame. Many people leave the SDA church because of unchristian behaviors and traditions in the church. I could mention many. Putting down an entire gender of people just because they are women is an unChristian tradition in my humble opinion.

However ... I do not leave the church over the issue . I am not sure which evil practice in the church has caused Robert to leave but I am sad about it. I think that if he was in the church it would only help God's cause. One sin of the organized church is that there is not enough dialogue and honesty. Honest feelings are not encouraged. They want you to hold and protect the company line.

I will give you an example of the company line. The issue of the second coming ... When I look at it ... the Second Coming has already come and gone. Yet, all the Adventists continue the tradition of looking for the second coming. I guess they can't count. Another example is the tradition of Rebaptism. There is no Biblical support for this tradition. The only example is one when the First Baptism was not of the Holy Spirit. Now ... we are baptized with the Spirit so there should be no need for rebaptism. WELL ... I could go on and on with SDA traditions. But, the point is that even though I don't like the unBiblical traditions of our church ... I don't leave it. I try to support the correct teaching.

I am thankful for this forum as a place of dialogue. I would fault no one for Any belief they have. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict and if we are not seeing things alike then we can only blame the Holy Spirit. And since my wisdom is not as great as the Spirit's ... I can only assume that it is not important for me to believe the same way as Robert for example. The only belief that I really must understand is the sacrifice that Jesus made for me. If I understand and accept that ... then I am on the right side of God.

God Bless each of you while we celebrate the Birth of our Savior.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

Redwood said:


huh? I'm confused. When did the 2nd coming happen???

You asked for poof for Ellen White receiving a Full Pastors salary. It is here at ANDREWS. In the James White Library. My spouse went to the Library and held the actual document. I will have to find out the actual source. So ... Hang on.

And regarding the authority Ellen White had over the GC men ... I would just ask you to review SDA history. When Ellen White spoke ... She spoke with authority and the GC did not question it. They would not go against what the prophet said. Now it is true that she often tried to keep her opinions to herself because she did not want to interfer . But, she had more authority and power than any GC person.

The First Coming of Christ was when he came and created the earth and also walked and talked with Adam and Eve.

The Second coming was when he was born of Mary.

The Third Coming was after he arose from the tomb and "returned to the Father" ... he came back and met with the disciples and others.

The FOURTH Coming is what I am looking forward to ... At the Fourth coming he will take us to Heaven.

The Fifth Coming will be to bring the Holy City to this earth. He will remake the Earth and we will live on this earth for all of eternity.

So ... if you really want to look foward to something ... look forward to the Fifth Coming. !!!

I subscribe to the first. I don't see any need to pretend otherwise or apologise for my belief.

Maybe there is no room in the Christian faith for people like me.

I look around me and try to identify marriages where both partners are truly happy together, continue to love one another more with the passing of time, both bring out the best in one another, both develop their talents and abilities to the best of their potential and both use their gifts to benefit their family and the wider community.

The few that I can come up with that match this description are all non-Christian couples.

Every Christian marriage I know stops being "best friends and equal partners" shortly after the wedding and mutates into this weird headship-and-submission role-playing game, with neither party really free to be themselves.

As I said before, maybe I do not belong in the Christian religion with views like mine...

aldona

Well, let the discussion begin:

Re: ") Ellen White was never "an ordained minister" in any church. See p. 257 of the book, Seventh-day Adventist's Believe. (If anyone doubts the testimony of the above, please write to the Ellen White Estate and inquire if Ellen White was ever an ordained pastor or minister.) Also, in 1909, when she was asked for the date of when she was ordained, she wrote an "X" meaning that she had never been ordained."

John 317, let us look at a couple of points:

You tell us that Ellen White crossed out the work "ordained" on her credentials with an "X." You are of course correct that the word "ordained" is crossed out with an "X." However, no one knows who crossed it out. There is no more reason to believe that Ellen White crossed it out than there is to believe that someone else crossed it out after her death. Your statement that Ellen White crossed it out is factually incorrect.

In addition, you have made a second factual error on that point. That error is in a failure to tell us a second known point. There is only one (1) known certificate of ordination in which the work "ordained is crossed out. The General Conference has in their records more than one certificate of ordination, with different dates. Only the one has the "X."

On another point, you tell us that EGW was never an ordained minister in any church. Then you acknowledge that the SDA Church issued her the credentials of an ordained minister. I stated that EGW was never ordained in any public ceremony. So, the issue now becomes one of what makes a person an ordained minister of the SDA Church. Or is it the public ordination ceremony?

I think that we have a decisive answer to that question. As you know, whether it is right or wrong, we have female pastors. Several of them have been publicly set aside in a public ordination ceremony. However, none of the have the credentials of an ordained minister. The public position of the SDA Church is that they are not ordained minister because they do not have the credentials of an ordained minster, regardless of their ordination in a public ceremony. Based upon that situation, my position is that EGW was an ordained minister--she had the credentials. You may differ with that. But, there is room for interpretation. You blunt statement that she was never an ordained minister is subject to challenge.


Re: "2) Was Ellen White ever called or known as a pastor or minister? No."

So what? However, I will point out that logically your statement cannot be proven. In many ways it is often impossible to prove a negative. Your blunt statement of something that is typically impossible to prove simply paints you with a brush in which you look desperate to prove a point. One cannot reasonably be expected to prove that an no point in time did anyone ever call her "pastor," etc.

Re: "3) Did she ever receive a salary or pay from the church as a pastor or a minister? No."

John, The point has been often made by those who state that Ellen White was never ordained, that she was issued the credentials of an ordained minister so that she could be paid the salary of a pastor/minister. To pay her that salary, was the purpose, they say.

You are entitled to disagree with that. But, you are now denying a fundamental point often made in the past. As some of her credentials were issues following James White's death, the point has been made that he had died, and she needed the income.


Re: "4) It is true that Ellen White was issued a ministerial credential. But this did not mean that Ellen White held the position of minister or pastor. See William Fagal's "Ellen White and the Role of Women in the Church," available from the Ellen G. White Estate; Also the same writer's article, "Did Ellen White Call for Ordaining Women?" Ministry, December 1988, pp. 8-11; and, "Did Ellen White Support the Ordination of Women?' Ministry, Feb. 1989."

The fundamental question here is: What is an ordained SDA minister? What is that role? BE careful as to how you define that. If you are not careful, you will define it in a way that EGWs grandson, who was credentialed as an ordained minister, was by your definition, not one. He had the credentials. Was his role in the White Estate, defending EGW, that of an ordained minister?

Be careful John.

Re: "5) Did Ellen White ever refer to herself as a pastor or minister or elder? Didn't she refuse to be called a leader of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Didn't she say the following?--"No one has ever heard me claim the position of leader of the denomination....I am not to appear before the people as holding any other position than that of a messenger with a message"-- Testimonies for the Church, 8: 236-237."

John, again you have made statements that are not complete. Rad your full citation. In that passage she clearly refers to the fact that she was never ELECTED as an officer of a conference. That is her point of reference. That of course is accurate.

However, you have also failed to give us the following quotation: "In the early days of our denominational work the Lord did designate Elder James White as one who, in connection with his wife, and under the Lord's special guidance, was to take a leading part in the advancement of this work." 8T 237.

John, contrary to your statement, your citation actually tells us that EGW as a leader in the SDA Church, even if not elected to such a position. I fail to understand why you did not share that with us. But, I assume that you missed it, and did not fail to share that intentionally.

Yes, she clearly says that she did not claim leadership. (8T237). But, as you are likely aware, EGW never claimed to be a prophet. So, she never claimed to be either an elected leader (Leader if you wish), or a prophet. Do you deny that she was a prophet? Ah! I hope not.

Re: "6) The Bible makes a clear distinction between prophet and pastor, and Ellen White never sought for nor was given the role of pastor or elder. A prophet is chosen and commissioned (ordained) by God alone. A pastor or elder is an elected office. A pastor or minister is an administrative and executive authority, whereas a prophet is God's mouthpiece."

John, your statement that EGW was God's mouthpiece sound pretty close to telling us that "verbal inspiration" was the present in EGW. As you likely know, EGW denied that. If you wish, ask, and I will supply the citations for your review.

You tell us that a "pastor is an administrative and executive authority." I know many ordained SDA ministers who would take offense, or at least disagree with you. That is not what I was told when I was ordained. That is not what I have heard stated in many ordination sermons.

Clarify for us what you mean in regard to role of God in choosing pastors. You have made a strange statement.

Re: "7) A Signs of the Times editorial, 1878, said, "A woman may pray, prophecy, exhort, and comfort the church, but she cannot occupy the position of a pastor or a ruling elder. This would be looked upon as usurping authority over the man, which is here [1 Tim. 2:12] prohibited." Obviously this editorial, written at the time when James White was editor, would not have been printed if Ellen White was an ordained pastor."

You are correct. EGW was first issued the credentials of an ordained SDA minister in 1887. So, in 1878 she was not an ordained minister. John, do your historical homework, and do not something that actually has no bearing on the point under discussion.

Yes, if you want the documentation for my statement, please see volume 3 of the AL White biography, pages 376 and 377.

Re: "8) See Scriptural evidence: 1 Tim 3:2; Titus 1:6; 1 Tim 2:11 ff; 1 Cor. 14:34,35. The Bible must remain our sole rule of faith and doctrine."

John, good point. I agree. I believe that I stated that if I take the position that you have taken in regard to the ordination of women, from the Biblical standpoint, then I would also feel a need to take the following:

a) The denomination was wrong in issuing EGW the credentials of an ordained minister, over a period of years, and several times. Therefore, the denomination needs to apologize for doing so.

b) Ellen White was wrong for refusing to publicly state that the denomination was wrong when they issues her those credentials.

c) She was either wrong for not publicly refusing to accept them, because she was wrong in her understanding, or she knowingly sinned against what she knew to be right.

d) I can accept that EGW was imperfect in her theology. No human, to include EGW was 100 per-cent perfect in their theological understanding. But, the history of her ministry clearly shows that God used EGW to correct error. I cannot accept that she knowingly rebelled against the known will of God in this matter. If she had been wrong, I cannot accept that God would not have publicly corrected her, and her writings would have reflected that correction. After all, we have other examples of such--her corrections in regard to diet.

One more comment in regard to EGW as a leader:

Vol. 10 of the SDABC, page 1584 states that EGW was a "cofounder" of the SDA Church."

In my mind, that makes her a leader.

Some other citations from that same book:

Page 1592 ". . . she [Ellen White] was paid the salary equivalent to that paid an officer of the General Conference."

O.K. she was paid a salary equal to that of the highest elected leader in the denomination. Well, John, that takes care of your comment in regard to being paid a ministerial salary.

Page 1592 "She was not ordained by the laying of of hands. Her name appeared, however, in the ministerial lists of such official publications as the Yearbook."

John, that is as I stated it. My question remains, is it the public laying on of hands, or the issuance of credentials that makes a person an ordained minister. Your will note that the YEARBOOK is the official statement to the denomination at large of who is recognized as ordained ministers, and who fill other categories.

Page 1592 We are also told that EGW was never elected to an office. But, we are than told that she went to General Conference sessions (plural) as a delegate. Are not delegates to GC sessions, denominational leaders, at least at the time they are attending as delegates? The certainly are filling a leadership role in the denomination at that time.

As to "authority over men: John, read the nine volume Testimony series. Over and over, you will see her exercising the role of one who has authority over men. If you do not understand that, you either have not read the nine volumes, or you have failed to understand them.

By the way, I have read them several times.

There are a number of reasons that could be given for why Jesus only had male disciples. Just a few suggestions:-

a. Jesus and His disciples often spent their nights sleeping in the Garden of Gethsemane, so we are told. OK for a "mixed gender group" No.

b. The raising up of churches was a physically challenging task. Definitely not suited for a mother, even a mother of teenagers who didn't need her constant care.

c. The role of women in society, in those days, was that of being belittled. Culture had removed women from the place that god had designed for them and had placed them below the "dignity" given to dogs!

None of these conditions apply today -- in our parts of the world! In some of the other parts of the world, women are still considered as lower grade humans.

To even suggest that ordaining women would open the door for homosexual ministers, etc, is absolutely ridiculous. It shows the level of thinking among some males. It has not changed since the Dark Ages.

The fact is that God Himself has chosen women to do His work. In both Old and New Testament times we have the stories of prophetesses in both the Old and New Testaments, of female helpers -- ministering in the churches. Paul (who is often partly quoted regarding women), in fact speaks very highly of the work that his female ministers did in raising up churches. Yes, they were ministers, even though the actual words are not used. They were among those used by Paul in his work.

As a female ordained church elder I do not feel in any way inferior to my fellow elders, male or female. We are all there for the same purpose -- the furtherance of God's work in our corner of the field. As females, we have a special work for the women in our church, and in society -- a work that no man can do. If there were more ordained (commissioned????) women pastors, there would be less problems with male pastors having to deal with delicate female issues. There are some problems that should only be discussed woman to woman, and male to male.

You might say, well, the deaconnesses can deal with those issues. Sure -- and the deacons can also deal with the male issues? That doesn't happen!! And why should women with a problem have to deal with an kindly, but untrained deaconness, while men can have the benefit of a male pastor who is trained in dealing with issues? Bit one-sided isn't it?

OK, I will get off my soapbox -- for the moment!



Beryl
(I'll be back!)