Regarding Aldona's comment ... "It is my understanding that any Christian believer should be able to baptise someone. Isn't that what Christ commanded us to do in the Great Commission? "

.............................................................

Aldona ... It is sad ... but the SDA apparently does not believe that the Great Commission applies to all believers. I am not sure why they believe this . Perhaps others can tell us why.

The great commission calls us and I believe that includes ALL believers ... to go and to Baptize.

The Church only allows PASTORS or a few elders with special permission from the conference ... to baptize. In my humble view this is to keep control of membership and therefore judgment of its members before and after baptism.

It really is quite a shame. I believe we should return to the ways of the Early Church where the jailor found out about Christ and within ONE hour HE and his entire family was baptized. Now days you have to pass the "newness of life" and "bahavioral test" before baptism. You are expected to live a holy life before baptism. At least the obvious behavioral laws.

I almost baptized my own son because he wanted me to. He wanted the one who taught him about Christ to baptize him. I asked the Pastor about it. I was an Elder but it seeme like a lot of hoops to go through to get Conference permission so I gave up. I guess I could have and then he could have joined the church on profession of faith.

WELL. I've said enough and don't want to hog the conversation. I will look forward to further comments on this.

THE PAP TEST KING .... THAT IS FOR YOU ALDONA ... (An inside joke)

REDWOOD

Aldona ... I would also add that Membership into the Church is no longer by Baptism. Baptism is membership into the Body of Christ. The church is apparently not the Body of Christ. If you want to join the church ... at least the SDA church ... the only way you can do that is through a vote. You have to have at least 50% of the members of your local church to vote for you ... then and only then can you be a member of the SDA church.

Perhaps some of you can tell me how this tradition crept into the church. Since it was obviously not part of the Early Church. When the Early Church met someone who wanted to be baptized they looked for the closest body of water and did it. The Eunich was a prime example of this. There wasn't any one else around for a popular vote of believers !!!

THE PAP Test KING ...

Redwood

Phoebe – the female minister

In Romans 16 Paul himself refers to Phoebe as a diakonos of the church and further reinforces her status and role by describing her as an important and influential woman deserving of respect and referring to her using the Greek word prostatis which means "a woman set over others". Paul chose to send his letter to the Romans in the capable hands of a female pastor/leader, one who could capably give them his very special message of righteousness by faith.

The Greek word diakonos is used 31 times in the NT. In the KJV it is translated 20 times as "minister", 8 times as "servant" and 3 times as "deacon". Paul frequently refers to himself as diakonos and also refers to Timothy as diakonos.

Here is a Greek lexicon definition:


The role and function of Phoebe is further explained in Romans 16:2 in Paul's introduction of her to the believers in Rome since she was the one delivering the letter to them. (See v. 27) In verse 2 the church at Rome is admonished by Paul to receive her with respect due to a holy person or saint. They are instructed to help her in whatever she needs to be done. This would suggest that she is coming as a respected person with some degree of rank in the Church and as someone who is in charge over others. This is confirmed by the very next sentence, if one examines the original Greek word carefully. The KJV uses the obscure, if not archaic word, "succourer" to describe her. Many other versions translate it simply as "helper." Given that in this sentence Paul is giving the reason to the believers in Rome that they should respect her and do what she asks of them, this doesn't seem exactly right given his whole introduction and the specific Greek word that Paul here uses to describe her. He describes her as having this unique role to many, including Paul himself. Paul uses the word prostatis which according to the Greek lexicon means:



This seems more than a mere "helper" as most translations would suggest, particularly given the whole context of these two verses. This seems to be a unique Greek word which doesn't have an exact English equivalent. The Greek lexicon further suggests that it is from a derivative of proistemi which is translated in the KJV as "rule" (5X), but also as "maintain" twice and "be over" once. It is defined as:



To further understand Phoebe's role and status notice that proistemi is used 8 times in the NT, the KJV translates it 5 times as "rule", twice as "maintain" and once as "be over". Romans 12:8 refers to the gift of ruling in the church (NIV translates it as "leadership"). 1 Thess 5:12 again speaks of respecting those who are "over you" in the Lord. 1 Tim 3:4,5, 12 speaks of a deacon being able to "rule" over or "manage" his own house and children. 1 Tim 5:17 specifically applies this word to the role of elders in the church who "rule" over or "direct the affairs" of the church. And Titus 3:8, 14 speak of "maintaining" good works.

I do not think it a stretch to see Phoebe as a minister/pastor of the NT Church and her further appointment by Paul, as he introduces her, and role for the church in Rome as being the female equivalent of a bishop, or at the very least an elder, as one who was placed in charge over others in the church. It certainly seems by Paul's introduction of her to the Romans in his letter that he highly regarded her as an experienced leader and saint of the NT church.

Tom

Thank you Tom for this good work. I found it very interesting and informative. I think it speaks volumes.

"Deaconess" is not Pastor. Please explain 1 Timothy 2:8-15.

Thanks,

Robert

That's the principle of the world in the church. It applies equally to both sexes:

Matt 23:5 “Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’....11 The greatest among you will be your servant.

Genesis 2:18-23 is an interesting passage. In that passage the word "helper" is used. [NOTE: Various translations use other forms of that word.] In our typical thought a helper is one who is subordinate to a superior who is giving the commands and direction. But, that is not the Hebrew. In the Hebrew, that word translated as "helper" is considered to be equal in all respects. It is an equality of partnership with the male.

Okay, sounds good, but please explain the following:

Gen 3:16 I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you shall bring forth children; Yet your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.

Doesn't sound like equality in all areas. Look, I see where you guys are coming from, but we can't be selective for we must look at those verses that seem to oppose your position.

It seems that 1 Timothy 2:12 is linked with Gen 3:16 like Paul had it in mind. Also, I have already quoted EGW (not that she is the final authority). Let's review that again:

"Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. And the Lord said, 'Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.' In the creation, God had made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God--in harmony with His great law of love--they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other."

I didn't say that EGW, quoting Moses, said that. Now she quotes Paul:

"Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband." [AH 115]

Here's what she had in mind: "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression. [1 Tim 2:13,14]

Please explain!

Robert

Sure, the woman was decieved -- and it was Adam who sinned willfully!!!If you read Romans 5:12 you will find that, biblically, Adam is the one who brought sin into this world.

In Genesis 3, was God inflicting punishment for sin, OR WAS HE TELLING WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AS A RESULT OF SIN? There is a big difference. We only have to read the book of Judges to find how low mankind stooped as far as treatment of women goes (eg. Judges 19). Perhaps that is why God called Deborah to be a prophetess -- AND THE LEADER OF ISRAEL. (Judges 4)

I am so glad that I have a Saviour who, when He was on earth, lifted the status of woman by His treatment of them.

Beryl

Oh well, I deleted my post somehow....Anyway.

"Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side [as an equal] in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. [Note EGW doesn't say what that was, the Bible does] In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all [women] who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them."

This is tough...no doubt, but of course this can't be forced on women in the sense that God doesn't force. So if it is true that the man is to "rule over" his wife, this must be done with the consent of the wife.

This is a tough matter....The Bible is hard to understand when it comes to this subject. So if any of you men think you can boss your wife around, remember you are to love her as Christ loves the church AND GAVE HIS LIFE FOR HER.

So again, this is very hard to understand because women naturally will oppose this and men will use it to boss....Now I'm confused.

I like Paul's counsel best:

1 Cor 7:27 Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.

"Worldly troubles" means the flesh of the wife and husband will stick its ulgy head up. After all (and this is for the young married folks) you eventually got to get out of bed. :)