What is there to explain? If women should not be teaching adult men in the church, how could it be right to have women SS teachers in the senior division? I am not advocating any particular position, I just do not see the church literally following Paul's advice.

Re: "The Tradition of not having women pastors and elders is alive and well. And what is the church doing about it? They continue to follow the tradition. The result is that women are not able to fulfill their call from God. And their unique abilities are not being used."

The SDA Church has women pastors.

The SDA Church allows women to fill the role of Elder in the same manner that it allows males to fill the role of Elder.

It is because the Church allows the above that the controversy exists today. [NOTE: I acknowledge that the controversy exists for additional reasons.]

Re: "It is very obvious that either we have to say the New Testament teaches that only men should be pastors or we have to say that the Bible is not the final authority for doctrine and practice. . . .

Those are the only two possible alternatives that I see."

O. K. Those are the only two alternatives as you see them. But, does that mean that there are only two alternatives in reality? Is it possible that there are others that you have not yet discovered? I do not mean to be sarcastic when I say this, so please do not take it as sarcastic, but, do you take that position that you have enough Spirit filled understanding of the subject that you can be certain that there are no more than two alternatives?

I personally think that there is another alternative. But, I do not desire to state that as I do not think that specific is the major point. My major point in this post is to suggest that there may be more than the two alternatives that you have cited.

It's OK if you explain why you feel as you do. I really am interested in what it is you believe is comical and what it is that is dangerous and belittling about the opinions I've expressed. I assure you I have no intention of belittling women, or of being dangerous or comical.

No doubt many share your view so I would very much like to know exactly why you think as you do.

Thank you for your consideration. But please by all means do not feel the slightest hesitation about stating what that other alternative view is. I would only be too happy to consider it seriously along with the other two views that, up to now, I had mistakenly thought to be the only plausible ones.

I understand that issue very well and very personally because I have been thinking about it for many many years. I've lived for years as a gay person and came very close to making the decision to have SRS. So you might say, politely no doubt, that I have had a lot of gender confusion in my own life. I am not saying this makes me right about this issue but I have thought about it and read about it for about 35 years now.

I have friends who are SDA gays who, about 1981, helped organize some of the first meetings for dialogues between SDA thought-leaders such as Fritz Guy, a former teacher of mine at LLU, and gay activists. I used to be active in the Gay Liberation Movement when it was just getting started in the early 70s. At that time I went to Metropolitan Community Church and saw firsthand how it was developing strategy for making changes and influencing other churches. I've gone to some SDA pastors (Port Orchard, Washington) to talk to them about being gay and was told there was nothing sinful about it. One top psychologist at Loma Linda UMC to whom I went for counseling also told me that it was not necessarily sinful, and he told me that if he had his way, Ellen White's book, Messages To Young People, would long since have been destroyed. These kind, professional people were no doubt trying to help me, but none of them pointed me to God's word and to Christ as my only salvation. None offered me the hope that Jesus still has all power to give the victory over every known sin in the life.

Does anyone seriously think the Adventist church demonstrates that it will have the strength and will to withstand the march against it from the forces facing it once it decides to bring down certain other barriers due to popular demand?

1 Tim 2:12-14 "Authority over" sure sounds like a leadership role such as a pastor.



What about advice on sexual matters or advice on justification by faith? Which should we regard and disregard?

I am not saying what we should regard and what we should not.

I am saying that I do not see the church taking this instruction literally.

And is this sitting on the fence - I guess so :).

(For the record, in the past I have served as senior SS teacher and superintendent, been ordained as an elder and preached occasionally - that I do not currently is related to my life situation and not a change in belief.)

Coming from a "secular" work environment where it is taken for granted that men and women are equal and capable of doing the same work...and then coming here and reading this sort of stuff...is very depressing and disheartening.

I have never felt called to be a minister of any kind (for me, public speaking would be a fate worse than death!) but I am acutely aware of the fact that if I had lived in E. White's day or before, I would have been denied the opportuninty to follow my calling (to be a medical doctor) because of my gender. So every day I marvel at how lucky I am to live in the time that I do.

Fortunately, those women who are genuinely called to minister are not wasting their time trying to get a piece of paper that signifies "men's" approval - they just get on with the work of preaching the gospel and ministering to people, "ordained" or not.

The church (wider Christian church, not just Adventist) has done an excellent job to learn and apply the principle of "in Christ there is no slave nor free". As we grapple with the issues surrounding race and racism in the church, we are learning that "there is no Jew nor Greek."

If we cannot understand and practice "there is neither male nor female," then intelligent, spiritually seeking women will continue to leave the Christian faith in droves and turn to paganism, Wicca and other belief systems where their participation and talents are valued regardless of their sex.

aldona

The Bible does teach that "there is neither male nor female," but that means there is no distinction when it comes to salvation and equality before God in terms of being saved. It cannot be made to contradict what the New Testament says about church leadership or about other distinctions the Bible makes between the role of the male and female. The whole Bible must be accepted as the word of God.

Women as well as men must seek the truth as it is in Jesus from the Scriptures and learn to change our thinking and our wills to fit the Bible's teachings. For instance, the Bible says the dead don't know anything and that people are unconscious in the grave until Jesus comes. It would be wrong to say that we know better than the Bible about that. In the same way, it would be incorrect, and a serious error, for us to say the Bible is wrong when it comes to issues of leadership in the church. We all need to submit to the Bible and not impose the world's view on the church in the place of what the Scriptures teach. Let's first of all make sure we understand what the Bible teaches on this, and then stick to it, no matter what the world says. That's my view.

Don't you agree with this?