Robert,

I think that if you read the passage as a whole it reveals that there was a common element of unrest and discord that had arisen and Paul’s admonition to the men is related to that of the women. He was seeking to restore harmony and decorum where there had been a problem with disruptions in the church. He instructs the men to calm down and stop arguing and he instructs the women to also calm down and cease the disruptive and controversial talking during church. Notice that in the introduction to this passage at verse 2 Paul indicates that peaceful and quite lives go hand in hand with godliness and holiness which are pleasing to God.

Here are two links to articles by Angel Rodriguez, the director of the Biblical Research Institute, directly addressing the questions you have raised, that I found helpful in understanding this passage and a similar one in 1 Corinthians 14.

Women's Words

Women's Place

Understanding the connotation of the original Greek is helpful. The key is that the word used is not asking for total silence or even the absence of speech, but is directed at a particular form of speech, disruptive arguing and confrontation that must cease so that beneficial communication can begin or continue.

Tom

In view of this discussion....a male pastor friend of mine sent me this quote today.


An Invaluable Experience.--All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God. As they cherish the thought that Christ is their Companion, a holy awe, a sacred joy, will be felt by them amid all their trying experiences and all their tests. They will learn how to pray as they work. They will be educated in patience, kindness, affability, and helpfulness. They will practice true Christian courtesy, bearing in mind that Christ, their Companion, cannot approve of harsh, unkind words or feelings. Their words will be purified. The power of speech will be regarded as a precious talent, lent them to do a high and holy work. The human agent will learn how to represent the divine Companion with whom he is associated. To that unseen Holy One he will show respect and reverence because he is wearing His yoke and is learning His pure, holy ways. Those who have faith in this divine Attendant will develop. They will be gifted with power to clothe the message of truth with a sacred beauty.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 322. (1900)

Thanks, Taylor. There are a good number more quotes like that from the same source as that one.

Tom

YES ... I would also like to thank Taylor. If you believe in Ellen White then it is hard to NOT believe in Women Pastors with that statement.

Hey ... where are all the women opposers???

Again, EGW is not the final word. She has much insight, but she also taught much legalism in her early days.

We must make the Bible the final word. The problem is that the Bible is very complicated and without God's Spirit we humans can't comprehend it.

It still comes back down to the fact that no matter what gender, the quest for the position of Pastor should be about being "servant of all" instead of "who is the greatest". In my estimation there are too many Pastors who fit the latter description.

The issue on women's ordination is muddy...it's not perfectly clear. Yet, as I see it, ordination is not a salvation issue. Rejecting the gospel is a salvation issue. So instead of fighting who should be a Pastor, let's challenge them to preach the true gospel.

Rober

Yes Redwood, I was wondering the same thing... Maybe if I launch into a couple of their favorite arguments against women in ministry such as headship (Robert, you are on the right track...) or husband of one wife... Hmmm...

But for now just in case there might be some who were not persuaded by that EGW quote, here are some more of her statements supportive of women in pastoral ministry, teaching, preaching and even church leadership that I hinted at earlier:

"The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth…" (1)

"she [a certain female pastor] has a ministerial license and bears many burdens of their church at Napier. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable." (2)

"It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life." (3)

“…introducing our publications into families, conversing, and praying with and for them is a good work, And one which will educate men and women to do pastoral labor." (4)

"In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created." (5)

"to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls." (6)

"God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes, high and low, rich and poor. In this work women may act an important part. God grant that those who read these words may put forth earnest efforts to present an open door for consecrated women to enter the field." (7)

"You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel, whose work testifies that they are essential to carry the truth into families. Their work is just the work that must be done. In many respects a woman can impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. The cause would suffer great loss without this kind of labor. Again and again the Lord has shown me that women teachers are just as greatly needed to do the work to which he has appointed them as are men." (8)

"There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry...The way is open for consecrated women." (9)

"Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work, should not be bound down to mechanical employment." (10)

Robert, I agree with you that EGW isn't the last word and that Scripture should be. But my experience is that most Adventists that are adamantly opposed to women in ministry are also great EGW fans.

Tom


(1) RH, Jan 2, 1879.
(2) Mss 22, 1893.
(3) Letter 33, 1879, p. 2.
(4) RH, April 4, 1882.
(5) Diary entry March 12, 1891, Ms 23-1891.
(6) to Brethren Irwin, Evans, Smith and Jones, April 21,1898, I191a-1898.
(7) Mss 43a, 1897.
(8) Mss 43a-1898.
(9) Mss. 43a, 1898, Evangelism 472.
(10) RH, October 15, 1903.

Matt 23:5 “Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’

If the spirit behind desiring to be a leader is like the above then that leader is not ordained of God:

11 The greatest among you will be your servant.

That's the test of being a Pastor!

12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Egocentric motives will fail!

It's not about position...it is about servanthood! If this gets out no one will want it, huh?

Robert

Robert, you are on to something there!

The NT terms for pastor and minister kind of turn that old headship idea on its head...

And besides, ministers, pastors, deacons, elders and bishops, regardless of gender cannot be the head of the church. The NT is very clear, the church has only one head - Christ and Christ alone. Anything else leads toward a the idea of multi-headed impostors (See Revelation for an explanation of multi-headed beasts...)


Tom

REgarding : "Again, EGW is not the final word. She has much insight, but she also taught much legalism in her early days."

I agree with you Robert . Ellen White was just a fallible human being. But like Tom said ... Most people that oppose Women Pastors feel she is a saint and never said a false word. They believe she is infallible.

So ... we have to go back to the Bible . I think the Bible is clear stating that men and women are equal in the sight of God.

But, Like you said ... the Bible is very hard to understand. Almost as hard as Ellen White. Even with the Holy Spirit ... we all come to different conclusions.

So ... I don't fault your faulty conclusions about Women. They are not second class citizens as you might think.

Never said that.