I agree Laz. Being color blind we would lose the flavor of the posts and community. We need the diversity of color and culture to get a better view of life. Without color we are too white sided. Snow blind even

More specifically to the context in verse 3, the phrase "doing as you please" (I think this phrasing better reflects the meaning than "seeking your own pleasure"...) is immediately followed by three very specific examples of what it means to "do as you please" on the day of their "fasting" (Sabbath?):

1.) exploit all your workers,

2.) quarreling and strife, and

3.) striking each other with wicked fists.

In direct and stark contrast verses 6 and 7 lists the conduct which establishes what is God-pleasing fasting/worship as contrasted to the self-pleasing conduct previously identified:

1.) Loose the chains of injustice,

2.) set the oppressed free,

3.) share your food with the hungry,

4.) provide the poor wanderer with shelter,

5.) cloth the naked, and

6.) not to turn away from your own flesh and blood.

With that introduction to verses 13 and 14, it couldn't be more clear now what is specifically being prohibited as "doing as you please" on the Sabbath and what God really wants of us to truly honor his holy day in a way that brings great delight and joy. Everything to understand these two verses is explained in the preceding 12.

I believe that Jesus' life and teachings exemplified this passage. He repeatedly lived out and taught the themes of this passage, including a number of other points not spelled out here, like untying and breaking the yoke, being a light in the darkness, asking and receiving, water of life, being builders and repairers... He launched his ministry on this theme by announcing in the synagogue in Nazareth that he was here to bring good news to the poor, free the prisoners, give sight to the blind and release the oppressed. And he described the end-time judgment scene as hinging on how people treated the hungry, thirsty, homeless strangers, naked, sick and prisoners. It's all about Sabbathing! (Now factor that into a reading of Revelation and Adventist eschatology... But that opens a window on a whole other study!)

Tom

PS Since you mention my use of Sabbath as a verb, I must share an amusing computer quirk each time I use "Sabbathing". My all-knowing spell-checker automatically wants to correct my "mistake" to "Sunbathing"... Hmmm... maybe the computer has a point there, or would that open up a whole new can of worms?!?!

We have enough worms. Sunbathing is one we really don't need to digest.

hahahahah Tom that is hilarious about the sunbathing/sabathing.

Now THIS is interesting to me! The specific issues I want to explore further, have to do with the word itself as used in this passage, and its immediate context. I don't have time at the moment, but I will dig further into this, and will respond.

Anybody, indeed everybody, contemplating becoming a SDA-type Sabbath Keeper, should read this entire thread which I and my wife have just completed in about 2 hrs...

This is the problem as my wife and I see it...we who grew up as SDAs beginning 84+ yrs ago and who have each had approx 20 yrs of formal SDA education and have been steady attenders of only SDA churchs all this time (until recently becoming literally aged.).......THIS is THE problem: Here are some 20 or so various SDA believers who cannot agree about the Sabbath in any really significant numbers and who are obviously confused because "they or we" have these different authorities all telling us about the Sabbath. These authorities are (a) EGW (b) the Old Testament, and (c) the New Testament. These are different 'authorities'!!!! They do not agree about the Sabbath with each other in important ways!!! Therefore, may I suggest that since the 'authority' on Christianity is NOT the Old Testament, nor, pardon me, please, is EGW....Therefore, since the New Testament IS THE authority about Christianity and Christian living we should attempt to find what the New Testament says about Sabbath observance and follow what IT says, without trying to put "..old wine into new wineskins..", or our preprogrammed thoughts and words into its wordings and meanings. Christ said HE was Lord of the Sabbath.(IMO, meaning...that He was Lord of the Sabbath, too, as well as all other days).. (My wife, sitting beside me says, in effect, "Stop there! What else does one need to know?!)

I cannot help but emphasize that information about being Christian and about doing Christian living comes from the New Testament primarily....not, primarily, the other two sources.

Ben Herndon

Rubbish!



A saying often taken out of context for doctrinal purposes.



Simply not correct. The NT says what the OT says, and EGW says what both say.

Great to see you, Ben!

Now, then, this is getting interesting indeed! We see several issues raised in this post--issues of word meaning, and of context. I am delighted to see things head this direction. Let us, now, examine the position statements:

1) "(I think this phrasing better reflects the meaning than "seeking your own pleasure"...)"

On what basis do you make that statement? The word is 'chepets.' Isaiah uses this word seven times in his book. It is rendered, 'what you please,' 'want' 'desire' 'will' both in Isaiah and elsewhere in the OT. While 'doing what you please' would seem to be supported, so would be 'seeking your own pleasure.' It appears to this student that either would work. Do you have any cites that would indicate otherwise?

2) "is immediately followed by three very specific examples of what it means to 'do as you please' "

Very well, that would seem reasonable. However, note the first example, "exploit all your workers." That is not something which would be done on the weekly Sabbath. These people professed to keep the Sabbath. Thus, they would not have their workers working on the Sabbath. What days is God referring to, then? This takes us to the third position statement.

3) "on the day of their "fasting" (Sabbath?):"

Is it the Sabbath? Sabbath is not mentioned here. What is mentioned? Looking at the usage pattern in the OT, the word appears to indeed describe 'fasting' or a fast as we know it. The word 'day' is 'yom,' straightforward enough. Are these days of fasting referring to the weekly Sabbath? Firstly, there is no indication in the verse that they do. Thus, at best the tie-in would be speculative. Secondly, I believe the Jewish custom was to fast on weekdays, not on the Sabbath, which was a special day, with a special Sabbath meal. Thus, it would not be a day of fasting. Thirdly, on the day of their fasting they oppressed their workers. That would not occur on the Sabbath, which was a solemn day of rest. Nor does God say anything here about their working on the Sabbath. If that were an issue, then one would think it would be mentioned along with the other issues.

4) "With that introduction to verses 13 and 14"

Is it? How do you know it is intended as an introduction? KIM that there were no chapter or verse breaks in the original. On what basis would you characterize vv. 1 - 12 as an 'introduction' to vv. 13, 14?

I'd like to stop here for now, and await the tiger's response.

Dave

Let me start with your last question. I do recognize that the original text had no chapter and verse breaks. I am more concerned about the context without regard to chapters as verses. Typically when I look for the context of a particular Scriptural point, I backtrack to where there is a clear literary break, transitional phrase, typical opening/introductory phrase, time marker in a narrative, or some clue as to where the topic at hand starts and then read back to the verse in question and then past it until there is a clear literary closing. Sometimes its not real clear, but sometimes it is. Often the starting point and ending point do not correlate to the chapter/verse breaks.

This passage shows a very clear literary ending as the last declaration of verse 14 - "The mouth of the Lord has spoken." That seals an important message from the Lord - it's his byline. So now one should go back through the passage to see where the Lord opens his mouth or there is some phrase to introduce or announce the message from the Lord. I find just such a phrase in the first verse of the chapter - "Shout aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and to the house of Jacob their sins." This marks out the literary boundaries of the immediate context.

But there is a larger context because this theme reoccurs throughout Isaiah. In fact there is a preamble that sets the stage for this starting back at the beginning of chapter 56 where there is another intro - "This is what the Lord says:" When I first began to explore the context of 58:13, I went back to this point. And indeed here is where you can see a larger context about the Sabbath and that Sabbath is about doing good. Read what comes next in 56:1-2:



And there is one more thing to consider, as I told John before, EGW repeatedly draws attention to the whole chapter 58 of Isaiah as being an important message for the end time. She strongly urges for it to be read as a whole integrated message.

Regrading your 3rd point, I put Sabbath in parenthesis with a question mark quite intentionally. It was to hint at an association or correlative application to the later verses explicitly about Sabbath. I did not intend it to indicate fasting on Sabbath, but that the problems identified as corrupting fasting also were corrupting the Sabbath and blocking it from being a blessing.


Your second point - exploiting workers. I did not mean to suggest that the core problem was that workers were being exploited only on days of fasting and the Sabbath. Nor that it was simply making their servants work on Sabbath. (Although there had certainly developed a practice of a Jew getting a gentile to do what a good Jew would never do themselves, including working on the Sabbath. I don't think you can assume they didn't do this.) I think a fair interpretation would be (particularly in light of the larger context) these bad actions were a way of life that did not even stop during times of fasting/worship or on the Sabbath. But more significantly, no amount of fasting, piety or superficially keeping Sabbath could hide or make up for their disregard for others and their wellbeing, which God is stressing as being far more serious. Loving one another and looking out for the wellbeing of others is more important than fasting or the Sabbath. ("The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.")

And finally to your first point, it is clear from the context that the intended meaning has a negative connotation. "Doing as you please" today is an expression with a negative connotation that suggests selfishness and willful indifference to what others want, need or may even require. That is quite consistent with the context. On the other hand, "seeking your own pleasure in todays English and todays cultural climate is neutral at worst and more likely understood as positive. Pleasure seeking, recreation or enjoying oneself is very broadly understood as being beneficial and necessary for taking a break from regular routine or work such as taking a vacation, holiday or the Sabbath.

OK, this is long and I am tired.

Tom