#112908 - 02/19/07 11:23 AM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: CyberGuy]
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Husband and Father
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6246
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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I'm no scholar, but I've heard that the word translated 'pleasure' is actually closer to 'work' or 'business'. Can someone confirm or deny? maybe all those burdensome Sabbaths can be blamed on an error by the KJV translators?
_________________________
If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve
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#112916 - 02/19/07 02:55 PM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: Stan Jensen]
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Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 1774
Loc: CA
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Amen! Great question Stan! This definately needs to be asked!! Answers anyone??
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#112917 - 02/19/07 03:04 PM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: Taylor]
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Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
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I wonder whether how that elder's parents treated him when he was a teenager.
Abuse is often carried from one generation to the next. The history of abuse of authority in the Christian church has gone on for over 1500 years.
It is time to stop it - but how many of the parent's of those teenagers defended them in public - or did they stand by while the elder publically abuse their kids?
There is far too much tolerance for religious intolerance in the SDA and other christian denominations.
/Bevin
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#112918 - 02/19/07 03:10 PM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: bevin]
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Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 7196
Loc: This Side of Calvary
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There is far too much tolerance for religious intolerance in the SDA and other christian denominations.
/Bevin
Agreed!
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Aspire to inspire before you expire!
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#112919 - 02/19/07 03:11 PM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: Stan Jensen]
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Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 1300
Loc: USA
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As A kid when I was first baptised I was very much a legalist.
No swimming on the sabbath.
No Work on the sabbath
No paying for anything on the sabbath.
No playing with friends on the sabbath day
etc
It was ok to sleep away the sabbath hours.
It was ok to go to potlucks on the sabbath.
Iw as ok to read books but only books printed by the adventist printing presses.
Later as I matured as a christian I learned this.
God created the sabbath so we could come apart from our daily routines and work so we could come closer to God and to our family both church family and blood family.
It is ok to do things with the family on the sabbath day be it walks, Picnics family get to gathers or sliding down hills with friends on the snow. After all one does not have to pay one red cent for that simple pleasure.
Christ said it was ok to do GOOD on the sabbath day. That means if it means hauling an ox out of ditch or working to free a cow or dog or other animal for a tangled fence on the sabbath day is ok.
I look at it this way. It is ok to help a person in distress such as a person with a flat tire on the sabbath day. Same principle as the Ox on the ditch IMO.
We have to stop looking at the sabbath in such a way that if we are doing something that is fun then it is a sin. This makes the sabbath a burden. A day to hurry up and get over with. That is why so many take long naps on the sabbath. To hurry up and get it over with.
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 Riverside CA
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#112939 - 02/19/07 04:36 PM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: CyberGuy]
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 2939
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This is another case where principles need to be defined and applied.
It is a principle of interpretation that every time a prophet speaks for God on practice, they either enunciate a principle or they apply a principle.
Therefore, some Sabbath texts enunciate principles, and some apply those principles. The application of principle to a particular context usually takes the form of a "rule."
Rules change with the context, principles do not. That's why a GC generated list of "approved activities," which has often been requested, is bound to fail. Because "approved activities," to the degree that they actually reflect true Sabbath keeping, will vary from one context to another.
As someone pointed out to me, in parts of the far north, the sun sets for weeks in the winter, and doesn't set for weeks in the summer. Believers their celebrate Sabbath as a 24-hour period, from 6:00 pm to 6:00 pm (I think). As you go further south, the days get more even. At some point, believers celebrate sundown to sundown, even if it starts in mid-afternoon.
Now, the time of sunset is a continuum. But somewhere, people have to make a choice between one system and the other. That point of choice is arbitrary--there's no particular way to settle it's "rightness or wrongness." Setting up hard and fast rules that must be followed in these diverse settings makes no sense.
Sooooo. Looking at the ice-scating pastor, or sledding children, or the SDA symphony conductor who would perform but not rehearse on the Sabbath, we need to look to principles, not rules.
If we can identify these basic principles, we're on the road to a solution that can be applied--with differing outcomes--in different situations.
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#112941 - 02/19/07 04:45 PM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: ichabod]
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Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 13239
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
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As Adventists there are times when I think we have such little joy one would wonder what is attractive about belonging to the Lord...
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Gail gail@adventistforum.comAnd the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17
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#112943 - 02/19/07 05:05 PM
Re: Whats all the fuss about?
[Re: Bravus]
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Latitudinarian
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 979
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
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I'm no scholar, but I've heard that the word translated 'pleasure' is actually closer to 'work' or 'business'. Can someone confirm or deny? maybe all those burdensome Sabbaths can be blamed on an error by the KJV translators? You are indeed on the right track. It is a shame that we have corrupted our Sabbath doctrine by emphasizing one word in one text from the KJV that was either poorly translated at the time or which has changed meaning in the last 4 centuries. Here is an abreviated and slightly edited version (I posted a more comprehnsive Isaiah 58 study in the Breaking the Sabbath topic .) of what I have posted elsewhere on this text in past Sabbath keeping discussions: The phrase "seeking your own pleasure" is not the best translation as its contemporary meaning is quite different than in the time of King James. A better translation in more contemporary expression is perhaps "doing as you please" or quite simply, being selfish or doing something for selfish reasons. The context in Isaiah 58 puts a distinct meaning on that phrase as used in Isaiah 58:13 regarding the Sabbath. The very same phrase is used earlier in the chapter, with an explanation of what it means regarding fasting. See what God, through the prophet Isaiah, said He meant in that context in verses 3-4 when He said "doing as you please." "Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit your workers. Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife and striking each other with wicked fists." And in case that isn't clear enough then continue on in verses 6-7 to see the contrasting behavior or how God truly wants us to worship Him, by correcting injustice, setting free the oppressed, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, finding shelter for the homeless and we are to start our kindness in our own household. In short, it's all about exercising "otherishness" instead of selfishness.
It has absolutely nothing to do with recreational activity or doing something you enjoy. Otherwise enjoying worshiping in Church, eating a good meal, enjoying a nature walk all would be breaking the Sabbath, because I find pleasure and satisfaction in doing all of them. Understanding the phrase wrongly also renders verse 13 self-contradicting by first saying don't do anything pleasurable and then instructing us to call the Sabbath a delight. By understanding the context it really makes more sense. So go out and enjoy yourself on Sabbath! And nothing brings greater joy and satisfaction than to help someone by easing their burdens, whatever they may be. And playing in the snow is a great burden lifter, IMHO. That is re-creation. (What a radical concept for the weekly memorial of creation!) Tom
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news.
(And finally, the ideas expressed above are soley my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
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