Bravus ... I think that no matter how you translate pleasure ... we should not have it removed from the Bible as Stans question above asks ... but we should do all that would bring Glory to God and bring us closer to God on His day.

If we are doing something for our own selfish purpose then I believe we are missing out on the blessing of the Sabbath.

The Bible is purposefully silent when it comes to a list like the Jews had as to what we can do and what we can't do. And I think this is good. We need to allow each individual to make that independent decision. What is fine for one person is not fine for another. So this means that we should not sit in judgment of another and how THEY keep the Sabbath.

I value the Sabbath so much. I feel the Sabbath has saved my spiritual life. So ... I guard it with almost a legalistic vigilance. But I would not propose for one minute that any one else keep it the way that I personally keep it.

You are correct about sabbath keeping values being different from one country to another.

When I was a missionary kid coming back from West Africa we stayed over the weekend at Cologne France at the SDA College there. On Sabbath afternoon they had an organized soccer game for the students on the feild on Saturday afternoon. Something that is frowned upon in the USA but is considered ok in Europe.

I asked by dad why that was allowed. He said they viewed sabbath keeping differently in Europe than in the USA.

I have read both sides of this issue...and I am coming to the conclusion that most of you are saying that either the elder was wrong or the kids were wrong....or there is some form of culpability on both sides....

Well, perhaps I am wrong for suggesting this....

But neither were wrong....

The kids were doing what kids do...having a healthy activity and taking advantage of the snow...

The elder was attempting to encourage Sabbathkeeping....

But what we [and I mean you and I] do is assign blame...What if the elder, after the elder 'blew up', someone told him, show us something that is acceptable and fun to do outside on the sabbath? Let's get the kids involved and let's go do something....

Result, the elder gets involved with the kids, and the kids are not repremanded for being kids. A positive activity is passed on to the kids, and the elders of the church are satisfied that the kids are doing Sabbath activities.... It's a win-win situation...

Just my thoughts...

I've served as elder. I'm currently lay pastor. I do not think, however, that this grants me the authority to declare for others what's acceptable Sabbath keeping, except in the broadest terms.

When it comes to a church-sponsored activity, there is a role for elders to play, but I'm not aware they've been appointed general constables for enforcing righteousness.

From the information we have, I'm stating categorically that the elder was wrong, that he has an inflated idea of his authority and responsibility.

The question I would have is where were the parents? What was their involvement. Frankly, I'd much rather see children sledding than to see the wild packs of children orbiting the average potluck without any adult supervision.

Looking at this discussion, why would anyone outside the denomination want to become part of it?

which would explain why my wife doesn't want to bring a non-SDA to her SDA church program, right...

Why is it so hard to fix some of these obviously broken aspects of the SDA culture?

/Bevin

Personally I think it is good that we discuss it rather than going on as we have been going on for years and years. Sweeping things under the rug does not help.

Having open dialogue on an important issue can only help.

I'm happy for discussion. That's not the point. My point is who would want to join lazarus' congregation, when there's so much energy expended over so little?

I'm not criticizing lazarus. Many congregations are like that.

My answer to bevin. I planted a new church, where such things don't happen. It's easy to point out what is wrong. Providing a constructive alternative is the responsible thing to do.

One would have to wonder too what those teens thought of Jesus, never mind all the other "stuff."

It is not very pretty to watch a teen get angry at God, and spit on everyone that "loves" them; but for those of you who have done it, or are going through it now - I know you can relate to what I am saying.

We, as Christians, need to learn better, how to choose our "fights" wisely. We actually do not need to "take a stand" on such things, half as much as we need to set the example.

Personally, I have found condemnation to the left, and to the right, no matter how I "keep" the Sabbath. I have been very "holy" doing nothing but Bible reading/discussion;" but then I have also gone to the gymn for a workout.

So it's really hard to "please everyone;" (liberal or conservative), but one thing I do know. My wife & kids ALL say that they really look forward to the Sabbath.

I know of one example where some "conservative" church members went to visit some not so conservative ones on a Sabbath. When these people saw the church members coming; the man of the house said: "Quick! Put away the coffee cups! Hide the computer games! The real Adventists are coming!"

He was actually quite serious when he told me this; and it is a shame that many feel they have to hide what they really do on Sabbath for fear of the religious police (liberals or conservatives), heaping it on them. I have even seen ones who do the right things like pray or study or "witness" on Sabbath, but even they are often told they are "doing it wrong." Few are safe from the Sabbath noose.

People talk away loftily about getting at the right "sabbath principles;" but this just becomes another program and system of condemnation for those who do not have or understand "the real principles" of sabbath-keeping.

It really should be a Sabbath rest - Rest ON Sabbath, REST IN CHRIST: like the Bible says. As soon as people start to become like that; we will see a lot more "Sabbath rest," rather than Sabbath tares.

Notice too, that I did not say "as soon as people start to "do" that. By nature, we are human-beings, not doings. If God is in you on Sabbath; He will show through. IMHO, this is what we should worry about the most.

Maybe what we really need to take a Sabbath rest from is judging...

Only for those whose focus is on judging.

If one understands that the Sabbath is about the relationship of God and His people, then the focus becomes on how these hours may build up that relationship for me and mine, not on what others should or should not do. In fact, it seems pretty obvious to me that what would be helpful to some would be hurtful to others. Sabbath practices might legitimately differ, and thus that would preclude evaluation of what others do.


Is "loftily" a judgment? Just wondering.