#125667 - 05/16/07 04:15 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: bevin]
|
Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: CA
|
The difference is the Bible is God inspired, the others are not, even though humans may think so. God's word is different than any other book. It's principles for daily living (which do not include immorality or brutality, which do not demote Jesus to a mere prophet but not divine). It has the ability to profoundly change the human heart to one of genuine care, concern, upright living, peace. Sure the other religions may say their books display those qualities but often there is alot of evidence to the contrary with some of those religions.
People can geniunly believe that "their prophet" is "God inspired" but when it doesn't hold up to the Bible which is God inspired, and if they are true seekers and are willing to do anything God asks, they will consider this delima and act accordingly. And yes I have know people from all those religions that have done exactly that, regardless of the price, because following God wherever he leads is the most important thing in their lives. (Some have not had that opportunity of knowledge and God certainly understands that).
Heaven will have people who have never even heard the name of Jesus, or who have believed gross errors, but who, in their heart, followed God or the right as far as they were able. It's a heart thing. Who is on the thone of the human heart? Is it our human reason, history, science, psychology or God and his word? Once God is on the throne then human reason, history, science psychology can be accurate because it is viewed differently from a different basis and world view. That filtered through God's word, human reasoning however is still subject to question because humans make errors. That is why it is so incredible to have something to anchor one's life to, and that is God and His message for mankind.
I know you don't accept that, and you think me very simplistic for those views, maybe even psychologically messed up. That's ok, it doesn't bother me. And by the way I do not see you as psychologically messed up or warped because you do not believe in the Bible the way I do. You have chosen a differnt path and basis as to what is truth. I don't understand that but neither do you understand my world view which in your opinion is so illogical. That is ok. The Bible is not rocked by science or history or humans anyway because it has it's basis in something that isn't ever going to be completely explainable by humans.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125676 - 05/16/07 05:17 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: bevin]
|
Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 12
Loc: Montana
|
In short, you make a personal feeling-based judgement Feelings have NOTHING to do with judging the truth of the Bible. 1. The almost-forgotten barely-discernable human processes that produced the Bible, combined with the simplistic literal reading of it, are infallible - despite the fact that the Bible itself has demonstrable errors.
2. The identical processes that produced the Apocrypha and the EGW writings are fallible - despite the fact that the SDA claim that EGW was inspired, Unlike some Christian groups, SDAs do NOT believe in the utter infallibility of the Bible. Neither do we believe in the infallibility of Ellen’s writings. Ellen’s introduction to the ‘Great Controversy’ gives a logical, common sense attitude toward the relationship of man and the Holy Spirit in the writing of the Bible. The Bible, written by fallible men, in fallible human language can still present the infallible will of God. See below, Ellen puts it much better than I: [take the time to really read it. You will likely be surprised] The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams and visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed have themselves embodied the thought in human language.
The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony.
As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of the subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind--a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life.
God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do this work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, nonetheless, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.
In His word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, R.V.
Yet the fact that God has revealed His will to men through His word, has not rendered needless the continued presence and guiding of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Spirit was promised by our Saviour, to open the word to His servants, to illuminate and apply its teachings. And since it was the Spirit of God that inspired the Bible, it is impossible that the teaching of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word. The Spirit was not given--nor can it ever be bestowed--to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Says the apostle John, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. And Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20. I think the evidence shows that Ellen was inspired by the same process. The reason why the apocrypha was rejected was because it does not show the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 3. the much more testable and repeatable human processes that study nature are much more fallible - despite the fact that they have stood up to a lot more scrutiny and have made a lot more amazing predictions, and are actually the same processes used to propagate, translate and understand the Bible. Creationary scientists have no problem with the testable and repeatable process to study nature. The difference comes in choice of interpretation of the data within Creationism or Naturalism. In the present day there is no difference in interpretation. However, when it comes to unrepeatable and untestable past the paradigm of choice makes a huge difference in interpretation. And again, pure logic, not feelings, is the basis for this choice.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125679 - 05/16/07 05:39 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: Taylor]
|
Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: CA
|
However, I would rather be dead wrong and treate others like Jesus would rather than be completely wrong and treat smoeone unkindly.
Typo I would rather be dead wrong and treat others like Jesus would, rather than be completely right and treat someone unkindly. I will add here, but that doens't diminish the importantce of truth, it just means that because of this truth we choose to love people regardless if don't accept that same basis for their beliefs.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125680 - 05/16/07 05:43 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: allenroyboy]
|
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
|
Taylor: The Bible is truth, it does not contain error or myths.
Allen: Unlike some Christian groups, SDAs do NOT believe in the utter infallibility of the Bible. Allen, meet Taylor. Taylor, meet Allen. You are both adamant SDA, yet your views on the correctness of the Bible are completely opposite. /Bevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125684 - 05/16/07 06:39 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: bevin]
|
Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: CA
|
Someone else's beliefs do not impact truth or my beliefs. I can respect that person but I don't base my beliefs on even my denomination. I am an SDA because I see it follows the teachings of the Bible closer than any other denomiantion, but my church is not infallable neither are the humans inside the church.
I believe in the Bible and in the truth contained. The Bible does not contain errors that impact truth. There might be typos, or someone's angle of a story (i.e. the gospels tell the same stories from different viewpoints) but God's truth and teachings, as you compare scripture with scripture. (For instance, the story of the rich man and lazarus is not to teach the immortality of the soul but given for a point. That is clear when you compare the rest of the Bible with that story.)
I am not an adamant SDA, I don't care about titles very much. I could be a Baptist, Catholic or Mormon if they followed the truths as laid out in God's word. I just happen to completely believe that God means what he says and says what he means in the Bible. That is the basis of truth. You are not forced to accept it, that is your choice. My passion to believe God's word and take it as such is apparently incredibly incomprehenesible in your viewpiont. I can accept even though I do not agree with your viewpoint. Allen has given his opinion and I have given mine and you have given yours. Science and history are your proof for many things. God's word, however is not opinion, it is His word which is just as relavent today as when it was written. When it is accepted as truth there is a paradigm change in world view and even things such as science and history.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125689 - 05/16/07 07:16 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: Taylor]
|
Swiss n Swedish American
Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 8958
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
|
You have made some good points Taylor. I would like to agree that God's word is not opinion. However I should point out that the way we read and interpret what the Bible says .... IS opinion. That is why we need to be tolerant of all interpretations of scripture. We have to believe and not judge our fellow man that they are doing their very best to follow God ... the God of THEIR understanding according to THEIR interpretation of God's Word or Voice in their heart.
You can also put Bevin in this catagory. Bevin is following HIS understanding of God. Who am I to question his motives. I can't know HIS heart. But I have to believe his heart is good. Just as I have to believe that your heart is good and you are following the God of YOUR understanding.
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies Love WON Another. Redwood the tree
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125697 - 05/16/07 07:52 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: Redwood]
|
Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: CA
|
I agree. I have never wanted to judge Bevin. I can't read his heart. I am certainly not judge in whether he or anyone else goes to heaven or not. That is God's job.
There are some truths in the Bible that are just stated. I don't think that constitutes opinion of man, it is there to be read. For instance, when it says Jesus is divine, we don't need to go for another interpretation or opinion (as some churches have done in not counting Jesus as divine). The Bible is clear and our option is simply to accept it or reject it. That is why we must ask God's guidance when we are studying to make sure our opinions, preconceived ideas, our background, our bias, what we've previously been taught as truth doesn't color the truth as presented in God's Word. That is also why we must compare scripture with scripture in an effort to see the entire truth. And we must be open to continually learn new things from God's word and from nature and science, and every other avenue, provided those things agree with what God says in His Word. If we are sincere, and are willing to say "God I will follow Your will for my life to the best of my ability. I will acccept your leading through your word, regardless of where that leads me" then we can be safe to know that we are on the right path. God's ways are not always logical to a human perspective but they fit into his overall plan and one day we will be able to look back and understand the "why" behind our questions. In the mean time we can trust that God has our best interest in mind.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125698 - 05/16/07 07:57 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: Taylor]
|
Swiss n Swedish American
Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 8958
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
|
That is why we must ask God's guidance when we are studying to make sure our opinions, preconceived ideas, our background, our bias, what we've previously been taught as truth doesn't color the truth as presented in God's Word. So .... If we put this to a scientific test and have two people do exactly as you have described ... will they both come to the same conclusions? OR will you accuse the one who doesn't believe as you .... as not having asked for God's guidance? And by the way .... I thought Jesus was human. I don't find the nature of Christ all that clear. I find it rather muddied. Maybe I am just not as bright as the rest.
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies Love WON Another. Redwood the tree
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125706 - 05/16/07 09:21 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: Redwood]
|
Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2022
Loc: CA
|
Hey my friend, I am not discussing the nature of Jesus when he came to this world whether it was pre the fall or post the fall. My point is that the Bible is clear in his divinity, that he first lived in heaven and was divine, i.e. he isn't just a prophet. That is the part I meant to say is clear.
I believe it takes time to understand the Bible. People don't come to the same conclusions at the same time. Some may have their PHd in Biblical Studies and others may have just heard about the Bible and Jesus so their understanding won't be the same. However, I do believe that given enough time, and a willing hear that God will lead each one of us into all truth. However, we will still be learning those truths in heaven for all eternity.
I never accuse someone who does not believe as I do as not having asked for God's guidance. God has his timing, he has to work with humans including me who have a variety of backgrounds, experiences, abiltiies, and understandings. It is a the miracle of God's word, however, that he can lead people from all kind's of backgrounds to see the truths in his word. That doesn't mean that anyone will agree with me. It's not important that anyone agree with me. What is important is that they are open to God's leading no matter where it takes them. If they do this, they will find the truths in God's word and His will for their lives. It is not judgemental to present truth as if found in the Bible but it is judgemental to presume that any human knows the heart condition or God's work in the life of anothe person. People are precious and incredibly valuable irregardless of their race, religion, gender, age, education, or finances.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#125707 - 05/16/07 09:24 PM
Re: Lesson 6 (2nd 07) The Bible and Science - DISCUSSION+
[Re: allenroyboy]
|
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
|
However, when it comes to unrepeatable and untestable past the paradigm of choice makes a huge difference in interpretation. The past is not repeatable, but experiments involving the past are repeatable. Evolution and Creation Science both try to (a) describe the state of the world in the past (b) describe rules for predicting the next state of the world given its current state Evolution has produced a very detailed model that correctly predicts the results of many experiments - and this validates (doesn't prove) the combined (a) and (b). /Bevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
This full membership income helps pay for hosting, advertising, domain names, software support etc etc
|
|
|
62 registered (AdventistWoman, babydeed, Beryl, Bravus, Bruce_G, bygjymbo, CGMedley, CoAspen, darlene, dgrimm60, Doug, Ellen, fccool, forgie, fun2believe, Gerry Cabalo, Gladussee, guibox, Heather Cummings, Jerry D Thomas, John317, Kevin H, Kountzer, lazarus, LifeHiscost, Lineman, Liz, Loren Fenton, LynnDel, melvin mccarty, mikeyswen79, Morning Glory, Nan, Neil D, Nightingale, Norman, pkrause, Redwood, SMAN, Suzanne Sutton, Taylor, Vera, 20 invisible),
440
Guests and
310
Spiders online. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 598
|
|
|