Dave,
You seem to have misundestood what I was saying. I do not believe the denomination is infallible. That is the problem. To say that and try
to effect change is by those that are disgruntled and looking to criticize the church leaders.
By your explaination you have encountered some of what is being discussed.

The chruch is for the strong and those that ca pull themselves up by their biblical bootstraps.
Any discssion of problems will ultimately bring a list of credentials and positives for our christian resume. We are better than others, we have the truth. Anything else that is said is overshadowed by that.
You say Jesus went looking for the one. Have you heard recently where as a church a statement that along with hugging a HIV victim we should actively seek those that have left the fold. No strings attached. Just that they are loved and can we help.
HIV victims are something we can handle. We did not give them aids. We may have given those that have left us a reason and that is hard to face.
The stats on the children that have remained in the church is heartening and we must recognize the good that can come from a christian education. We seem to recognize that accomplishment at the expense of those that have left us. Why did they leave? What can we do so we are not responsible in part for others leaving.? Can we crub those acts of abuse so we don't lose so many? That requires a firm committment and stand? How many are willing to do that.
While acknowledging the many good attributes and values of the Seventh day Adventist denomination are we capable of looking at the not so pretty pictures that lurk just underneath.
That takes chruch leaders and members alike. Total honesty and a strong desire to change.
Are we up to it? Or are we going to be content that we are still better than the others.

Chimmy.

[ June 24, 2002, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Chimia ]

Chimmy:

Thanks for the insight. Our dicussion seems to have taken over this topic.

In the traditional SDA view...

You either remain in denominational employment and shut-up, or you leave.

You either keep you child in the SDA Educational system and shut-up or you put them in another school.

You either remain in the SDA Church as a member and shut-up, or you leave.

OR

You speak up, and try to effect change through the system and risk loss of employment or membership.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for the input, I have enjoyed our discussion. I am glad we can discuss opinions on this Forum.

Dave Davison

Dave,
I am very sorry I did not see your edit suggesting this should not be discussed publically but privately though e-mail.
I am sorry if I offended you.I was basing my comments on what you had stated as your own personal experience and that of others that have posted to this thread.

You have I think made some assumptions that I did not realize you would make with some statements.I would like to clear up a couple of statements and then leave this to those that have a solution.
You said,"Remain in the denominational employment and shutup or leave,You speak up and try to effect change through the system and risk loss of employment and membership.

I was not speaking of employment. This seems to be a misunderstanding as it appears you are.
I was speaking to the statements made in this thread of families that had tried to work with the system in cases of abuse of their child.The party disfellowshipped for going to the police to lodge a complaint. Another families reputation damaged because he spoke out.
This is what most face when the attempt for change takes place.
It is very difficul to get church leaders to listen and act to stem the tide of abuse. This is where
and what as a denomination we do not like to look at.

I am sorry if I offended you and certainly did not intend to monopolize the conversation.
I will be more careful in doing so in the future.

Chimmy

Two of my favorite quotes are, "It is not the trial we go through that makes us strong, it is the way we react to it that gives us strength" and "If you want to see change in the world start with yourself." I teach in an SDA school and sometimes I get frustrated over situations, both with the conference, the local school and some of the families that are enrolled. I have never made anything better by leaving. Our schools are not perfect because the teachers are human, our students are human and the board members are as human as the families enrolled, but they are still safer than the public school system. If you take your child out of Adventist education, I strongly suggest you homeschool. I have taught in public schools too and there are many things happening there that are a greater danger than evolution! As a teacher, I take it upon myself to make my classroom a safe, happy place where learning takes place. I do not allow my students to put each other down. Sadly, that is a full-time job sometimes because we watch shows where putting each other down is what we find funny and children repeat what they see and hear. I am so sorry for everyone whose child or they themselves have had a bad experience in a place where we expect greater kindness, but I encourage you now to go beyond voicing your opinions here. Pray for the schools and then do what you can to make it a better place. Volunteer if you can, involve yourself with the students, even after hours. Good examples make better children. And Dave, don't give up. If you are doing it right you could be the difference in one child's life or many children's lives. If those who are frustrated quit, then those who are suited are all we have left. It is hard, I know, because I have worked with an administration that was less than wonderful, but it worth it for the children you can impact. And aren't they why we do this?
Keep the faith,
dedicated

Let me explain why we are seriously considering moving our child from the local SDA school.

1. I am on the school board.
2. Both my wife and I have also offered to volunteer time to come in and read for the children at our school.
3. We have offered suggestions for change
4. We have raised concerns and issues in an amicable manner to get them solved.

Now bearing in mind all this, plus those of my previous posts I have come to the end of my tether, as points that have been raised are either ignored or dismissed as irrelevant!!!
As per a previous post it is either put up or shut-up!!

My daughter went into school aged 3 being able to count to 20, write her name, recognise shapes, know her alphabet and singlead in choruses.
Only the latter seems to have gone forward since she has joined. In fact in all the other issues she has dropped back. We had to request, almost beg for work that would keep her stimulated after school. She desires to learn - why not nurture it.

Now I understand that not all of the students are at the same level in her class, and she with another two are special case students, but when I hear the education personnel crying out about Adventists not sending their bright children to school and then when you do the teachers does not either identify and nurture that gift (class of 13!!) or know how to, then I'm afraid I have no choice but to send her to another school - christian of course, whether public or private, where at least there is some accountability. God has given me a gift in my child, why should not strive for the best for her.

It's sad to have to do this, but I will not let my child's wellbeing suffer as a result of this - or drive the extra 20 miles daily roundtrip and pay an extra £2000 a year to send her to the next alternative!!!

For those who have had success stories, well then you are fortunate, but you have to understand also the reason why those who have not will not tolerate second rate education for the sake of the name of the church --- and not all of us have the gift or resources to homeschool!!

Stay blessed
(The member formerly known as Psalms Too)

[ June 24, 2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: David McQueen ]

David:

I have enjoyed reading your posting throughout Forum. What started as an effort to gather information, perhaps to help me understand my experiences, has led to some rather lively responses, including mine.

You are on the school board, so you have the opportunity to take some action. Do not rely on the administration to handle everything that comes up. At the conference level they have multiple schools in a large arrea to track, and they just are not aware of the day to day problems. It is up to the board to help in this regard. In three years, I have yet to encounter a board member who didn't care at all. Notice, I didn't say that I didn't 'see eye to eye" with, I said care. Speak up constructively at board meetings. Invite teachers to attend meetings and open a dialgoue. It is not "them versus us", you are a team. I cannot speak so high of all of the conference people I have encountered. Part of the problem is as I have mentioned, they are not usually local, and they have many schools to visit, meetings to attend, and usually collateral duties.

If you have done all of this and still want to pull your child out, then you need to do what you need to do.

May God Bless!

Dave Davison

[ June 24, 2002, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Dave Davison ]

Chimmy:

No offense taken. To spare everyone else of my monopoly of this topic, I am sending you a private message.

Dave Davison

David,
Having raised five beautiful daughters (is there any other kind), I understand your concern and I am sorry that your teachers are so unresponsive. I am also sorry there is not another Adventist choice for you because not all Adventist teachers or schools are created equal. Having been married to a man who came up through the system and suffered the lack of stimulation some years, it is my personal quest to meet each child where they are and take them where they can go both scholastically and spiritually. Maybe it is because I am not gifted with a lovely voice so we don't do extreme chorus singing in my class (I spare my children where I can). Still, I would encourage you to not send her to public school if it is possible. In the past this wasn't the worst thing you could do, but it is fast becoming that way. I will be praying for you.
dedicated

Thanks Guys.

We are still praying about this but we find it very hard to suffer fools gladly. We are working on the longsuffering thing.

Stay blessed

Being the spouse of an elementary teacher/principle and who has recently heard the "war stories" of teaching very recently, I am going to air some things that are probably going to hit home with some of YOU people....

My wife is a very good teacher..I can say this because other teachers are very impressed with her teaching methods, and when the creditation people always come around, she had NO compliants or suggestions to change...ever...[now THAT's a good teacher!].

Last night, my family had another good teacher over. He's a young'n, in his late twentys and recently married. He was trained by my wife and her boss [an experienced teacher whose is about to retire and also a fair to good teacher/principle].

My wife and him traded war stories, you know, all the crisis and problems of thier profession were discussed...Our friend/teacher was plicked out of the Idaho conference and sent to the Georgia conference...He complained that teachers there at his school hardly ever made the children learn. There were many children who had complained to thier parents that the 'homework was too hard' and that the parents went to thier teachers and the teachers, overwhelmed with complaints, let thier homework slide. As a result, the Tests that measure where the students are against national standards were extremely low...

My friend fought with the parents and the students...About midyear, the parents started to realize that their children could do the work that my friend was requiring of them. They did not complain nearly as much as they did...and started supporting him...

His complaint was that there were teachers who were passing students and those same students were not requiring those students to meet minimum standards so that he could build upon thier learning experience...He also was saying that teachers suffer "burnout" because of the parents...and the mickymouse politics of the schools...[ personal editorial]This is a shame to our schools...It would be better to close our schools than to send out poor students [end of personal editorial]

My advice, there are good teachers in our schools. Find those SAT tests from your school, and require your students [yes, that's YOUR children ]to meet those levels. Support your teachers, after all, they live with your child more that you do, now...They know your child, as well or better than you.. Require the best out of your teacher...make them work to make your child a better learner....

That's about all I got to say on this subject..

[ June 25, 2002, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: n_dewey ]