[quote=Shane]

He sure does, and it's for everyone, but the ironic thing is that often the only people who know this best-- like Jesus said-- are those who realize the terrible, almost bottomless depths from which Jesus rescued them.

I don't agree with you on this, that is, regarding pedophiles and gays being considered on the same level and in the same way. Pedophiles take advantage of children and commit rape against them. They commit terrible crimes and do things that virtually all civilized societies hate and have laws against. That by itself puts them in a different catagory. Most pedophiles desire female children and most "gays" dislike pedophiles just as much as straights do. In fact, they dislike them more because pedophiles give a bad reputation to gays in the minds of a lot of people.

You may beleive that gays also commit crimes against God--and indeed they do-- but there has to be a distinction made between societal laws and God's laws. It would not be right or proper-- in fact God would not want us-- to make laws that punish people because of religious/spiritual differences. Besides, when we say we think of gays as the same as pedophiles, we are saying it is OK to treat them in the same way, are we not? How do we treat pedophiles? We punish them, locking them up in jail or prison and they lose their rights. Society makes them reap the consequences of their misbehavior. Are we saying then that it is OK to do the same kinds of things to gays? And how does that attitude affect the church's feelings and attudes towards the gay person? How does it affect our children's attitude towards people in the church who may be "gay" but who are allowing God to change them?

Anyhow, just a few thoughts.

Important note: I assume you realize I am not saying it is not sin to have gay sex or even to have desires for gay sex.



Could you please give me the source or reference for your quote about Karl-Maria Kertbeny or Károly Mária Kertbeny? Thanks.

Thanks for the testimony, Norman. I enjoy hearing of God's goodness towards us. I had a similar experience in january of `03.

Why thank you Redwood. Happy sabbath to you.

I also appreciate this statement, Norman. I agree with it.


Paul told us these things were coming. Let us not be surprised, but confident in God's wisdom.


the other Gerry

Homosexuality, like pedophilia, or any other sin for that matter, are ALL perversions, aberrancies when measured according to the straight word of God.

Gerry

amen

I am not disageeing with you on that. The problem is that when people don't understand it properly, it leads to showing disrespect for others and often even leads to murder. You have to realize there are people out there who are not led by God's Spirit who hear things that causes them to feel that it is OK to kill gays because they think "God hates gays." I am confident you would not want this to happen.

Take an example. Suppose I go to church and sit down next to you. Suppose you suspect I may be a "gay" type whatever that is. Are you going to disrespect me or treat me differently or maybe less lovingly as a Christian because of your attitude towards "gays"? That is a very important issue: how are "gays" -- I mean those who are trying to let God heal and change them, just like heterosexuals are trying to let God change them in other ways-- how are "gays" going to be treated in your church and in your community if you beleive God doesn't love them or want you to love them?

Murder is a perversion of life, then. Perhaps that brings balance to the discussion.

olger

Yes, there are degrees of murder. But we all know that there is a big big difference between knifing or gunning a person down for going against our personal religious views, no matter how right we know them to be. We can't go around and make people obey our personal religious convictions. We may not like it but people have a right to make mistakes and to sin. That is as God would have it. We don't have right to compel others to do the right thing unless the society decides it is in the best interest of public welfare to pass laws that do compel certain behavoirs, such as obeying traffic laws, not stealing, not raping, etc. But beyond that, people have to be allowed to decide for themselves to do God's will in matters like homosexuality. The idea is persuasion, not compelling people's consciences. We talk to people if we don't like what they are doing; we don't shoot them, stab them, or call them names. That is no way to get them to change. The best way is to love them into changing. Tell them the truth, yes, but do it in a loving way. That is what got through to me. It will with others, too.

So, then, let me ask right upfront-- if I or Parade Orange attend your church and you suspect or know that we are "gay" or whatever, how are you going to treat us? Are we going to be made to feel welcome just like anyone else? What if you see me preaching? Are you going to think I have no right to do that because of things that happened in my life before? Where do we stand as individuals and as a church?

Hope this doesn't mean what I think it may. I mean the lack of reponse. Hope no one has visited this thead in about half an hour.

Doesn't matter to me. All are welcome to God's house. I would greet you the way I greet everyone. A smile. A handshake. Or if I know you really well, a hug. And if you come the third Sabbath of the month, an invitation to stay for potluck.