Yet in spite of all the shortcomings of our school system, the Valuegenesis study reveals that more of our children who go through our schools stay in the church because of itthan those who do not.

I wish though that the study could have included in their survey how many leave the church because of their experience in our schools.

GerryC

You may have answered your own question.
If we begin to ask questions as to how many leave as a result of our schools ,we may not like the numbers. If we look at a 100 that stay because of our schools and don't look at the numbers that leave, we end up with quite impressive stats.Those that leave are dumped into the bin of mal-contents.Ellen White says we will have those and must not let them dissuade us from our true mission. The numbers saved will only be a few in number. No one has a reason to leave and it would be wise not to listen to those thst do,lest they pull us with them.

Chimmy

Ellen White says we will have those and must not let them dissuade us from our true mission. The numbers saved will only be a few in number. No one has a reason to leave and it would be wise not to listen to those thst do,lest they pull us with them.
__________________________________________________
Cimia:

You said the above in your posting. Did Sister White say the whole paragraph or only the first sentence?

Please let me know where that reference can be found.

Dave Davison

Dave,

The statement was not meant to be an exact quote. Ellen White says many places throughout her writings that few will be saved. I believe the numbers 1 in 20 Seventh Day Adventists are accurate. She gives stinging rebuke to any that would critizie those that God has placed in authorty in our denomination. They should not be allowed to spread to spread discontent.
Which goes right to the heart of your question, of what we can do.

Change almost always requires criticism, a unhappiness with the way things are done
Most Seventh Day Adventists are conditioned from early on to resist change of any kind.It become a great concern if that change is required of those in authority over us are expected to change if the current actions or polices are seen as harmful.

A reference was made in another thread here about pretty feelings,anything that is not pretty by our definition is resisted.
The charity shown a homeless person paints a pretty picture of our christian caring and concern. To have to own up to the fact that single mother with young children left due to having to struggle on her own,and our acknowledgement of why she left is not pretty
The stories of abuse on this thread alone are not pretty,nor do they instill pretty feelings. We make a prettier picture by saying either we need to look more closely at the parents to see the real reason of abuse or in the face of undeniable truth,it becomes pretty again by saying it made us stronger.

You cannot expect change of any kind in any area without criticism of those not to be critized.
When we look at our sucess stories of children that remain in the church due to Seventh Day Adventist education it is a very pretty picture of what we stand for. It becomes far less attractive
when we look at those that left nd why.
Those are statistics that get little review.

Then it becomes those that were not firmly grounded. Frequently the trials and victories of biblical Daniel,Joseph and others are used as an example to pretty up the picture we look at
If they could do it we don't have to worry about those unable to do so.

We cannot change what we cannot criticize. Change requires criticism.
We should not criticize those we have been commanded not to.
I doubt you will have sucess reversing the conditioning of the last 150 years.
Why would those happy with the status quo want change that is going to force them to look at a picture not quite as pretty as what would make them comfortable.

Chimmy

.

.

Yes, Bonnie, there are many and varied reasons why children are picked on at church school.
For my boys, it was because they had learning difficulties. And the worse offenders were other children who were in the same boat.

My solution to that at a parent, was to get the school to call in a teacher who could spend one on one with these children and improve their reading. And it worked wonders while it lasted.

My son who is now 28, spent an evening with one family who was helped. He told me how those 3 siblings think highly of me, and that is because I spent time helping them, where no one else would. It was the kindness, understanding ( because I had 2 of my own) and practical help they received, and have never forgotton, even though the 3 are out of the church.

Learn More Easily.

This horrified me in our local newspaper this morning.
This is, of course talking about public school system.

Did you know that Transcendental Meditation is used in schools to hellp students improve their learning abilitiy?
Dr K. Rutherford, Principal of the Fletcher-Johnson Learning Centre, in Washington DC, needed a way to help his students overcome their stress and learn more easily.

His school had some of the toughest, most stressed students in a city that has been dubbed the crime centre of the world.
Eight years ago he visited a school in Iowa where all the students and teachers practice TM.
He told his staff: "I look around this school and all I see are smiling children. This is too good for just 600 kids in Iowa. I want this for my kids and I'll have it!"
Over 30 of his staff decided to get involved and learned TM for themselves. "We had amazing results," Dr Rutherford said. "You walk into the school and feel it's tension -free, a stress-free school right in the heart of the inner-city."

Another one of the devils tools right in the schools, getting hold of our childrens young minds.

Chimmy:

Let me understand what you are saying. Ellen White says not to criticise those in authority in the church. Change requires criticism. Adventist are resistant to change. We need to paint a pretty picture.

I do not believe that Jesus wants us to take no action when something is harmful, or means losing students because of a person or persons becoming stumbling blocks to others, just because that person is someone in authority in the church.

Many years ago there was a great leader. He was revered by those people he supervised. He had been put in the position of leadership by the "Chairman of the Board". Some chose not to follow his leadership. One out of three followed him loyally as good employees might be expected to do. The group that followed him were cast out of heaven along with him.

I do not believe we blindly follow someone in a church leadership postion without examining the way they conduct their job. Matthew provides us with a greviance procedure. When that is followed and the person will not changed then they are to be removed from the congregation. So there is a way to address greviances, and it is permitted for in the Bible.

Didn't EGW say that in the end times during the great shaking that some would fall away that we would heva never thought would do so.

I appreciate your interpretation and point of view. Unless God forbids speaking to a brother or sister, or getting others involved when that person will not heed you, then action needs to be taken.

Dave Davison

Dave,

While I agree with you when you say,"I do not believe Jesus wants us to take no action when something is harmful........." the cold hard reality is you are not talking to Jeus.
You are talking to chruch elders, pastors,conference presidents You are dependent on them to listen to you and share concerns about harmful actions. Have you personally tried this and what if so was the result?

Unless it is pretty, your chance of being heard is not that great. To have to get to the heart of a problem ends up many times painting a very ugly picture. .

I have been a silent visitor for sometime on C/A, although I am a new registerd member.
A short time ago a thread, I believe it was on this forum dealing with those that had HIV. The question was asked about giving them a hug This shows a very loving spirit.. Most were very firm that of course they would do so. Let me ask you, how many have you sought out that have been literally run out, become so discouraged they left the church, can no longer function in our denomination. This is something altogether different and not nearly so pretty.How many have we felt compelled to give a hug to.
It is not nearly so gratifying to say, we may have done this.Then we have to look at the ugly picture. This is what you are basically asking to be done.

I agree Matthew provides us with grievance process. Again, let me ask you. Have you personally tried this working with church leadership? What was the outcome?
Let me ask you which leader have you heard of this happening with. They are simply moved. By a peverse logic it at times becomes a promotion.

I think my question has always been who is the one in twenty and who is the nineteen.
Are the nineteen those that have fallen away, or maybe could someone who had been badly treated come back to God and the nineteen are those that have not gone looking for the one.

Last week we had a badly hurting woman on this forum that may have left. How many have gone looking.She will not be a pretty picture of adventism. Very little response to her plea.
Is she as valuable as if she had HIV.

I admire your desire for change. I do not dispute what you have stated as a biblical reference.
Nor would I discourage you from trying.

The members, church leaders must have a concern not for the problem, but what created it.
That of course will become a new problem.Much better to treat those that complain as an outcast.

Chimmy

Dave

My eldest went a boarding Academy.

It was an awesome experience for her that set such a positive course in her life..

Thank You Milo

Stan

Chimmy wrote:

"Much better to treat those that complain as an outcast."
_________________________________________________

Jesus left the 99 to look for the lost 1.

I don't think sharing names and particulars of my experience would benefit anyone. Let me just say that the Conference was made aware of the situation. I was basically condemed for saying anything bad about "my superiors", even though I went through the "chain of command" starting with the person I had a concern about.

I find myself disappointed with apathy. We see examples of the "infallibility" of the Catholic Church with the problems made public with sexual misconduct. What about Dr.Kellogg. He was a church leader who later embraced panthaism, seeing God as an absentee creator. What of other Christian leaders who have committed sins, and lost their flocks. If we claim infallibility and refuse to consider error, and a way to address it, then we should just go out and bury our heads in the sand. Pastors, teachers, administrators, and toher church workers are human and "all fall short". We must look at the fruits they produce, and make them aware of things that are not in accordance with Gods Law or civil laws "render onto Caesar what is Caesar's."

While I appreciate your opinion, I think we can agree to disagree. Since I really was looking for feedback on how to address the concerns mentioned in this subject area, perhaps you and I should continue any further discussions through e-mail.

Thanks!

Dave Davison
davedavison@kc.rr.com

[ June 24, 2002, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Dave Davison ]