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#136521 - 07/29/07 08:32 AM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: David Koot]
melvin mccarty Online   content


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 647
Loc: B,C.
This is an excellent example of how one can take parts from another person's post and by ignoring the rest of the post make the other out to be ignorant! One who professes Christ should not I believe use these tactics. I'm sorry to be blunt this way but John 317 does it all the time so it must be proper

mel

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#136522 - 07/29/07 08:38 AM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: melvin mccarty]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
 Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
This is an excellent example of how one can take parts from another person's post and by ignoring the rest of the post make the other out to be ignorant!


You said that Dr. Kennedy quoted two other individuals. You need to back up what you said. Here is what she said:

"Apparently, the writer of the post disregards the purity of the deposit as empirical evidence supporting rapid, nearly instantaneous deposition of the coccoliths. Sedimentologists agree that such purity is remarkable and possible only in a catastrophic event.

There are long age arguments for the chalk promoted by a small group of individuals in England; however, their arguments relate to diagenetic alterations post deposition.

There are no cites here. Who do you assert she is quoting? On what basis?

As for John317, he is quite a scholar, and he certainly does not engage in the kind of tactics you are suggesting. I doubt you could find a single instance from his posts to support what you have said. Or, if you have, let's see the specifics. Abstract representations mean nothing.
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"Study to show yourself approved by God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

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#136524 - 07/29/07 09:07 AM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: David Koot]
Bravus Online   content
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 7139
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Genesis 1:16 is the reference to the creation of the stars that I am referring to. I'd be interested in hearing why it doesn't actually say that.

"16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars." (NIV - for convenience, pick your preferred version or go to the Hebrew ideally)
_________________________
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate

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#136534 - 07/29/07 03:46 PM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: Bravus]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
I would be glad to, but I fear it must wait a bit. Getting married off later today, and I am running! I didn't get my wake last night either. Oh, well. Will be back in a couple of days.

Cheers.

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#136535 - 07/29/07 04:02 PM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: Bravus]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 17020
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
 Quote:
there are many different positions, including some who believe in a literal six-day creation of all living things in pretty much their current form, but some millions of years ago rather than thousands.


I understand there are many different positions. In the culture war of our current society, however, we see only a handful of these views as actually being established. What do I mean by that? There is a battle to get creationism taught in the public school. That is pretty much limited to short-age creationism and intelligent design - which is a form of theistic evolution. Other forms of creationism are taught by various denominational seminaries although those too are limited to about four to six hybrids that I am aware of. So in a philosophical discussion of the different theories, I try to limit myself to the major ones that I at least have a little bit of knowledge about.

 Quote:
I think it's also important to recognize that your own 'recent creation of life on an ancient earth in an ancient universe' perspective would be considered heretical by 'recent creation of the entire universe' creationists!


I am inclined to believe in a recent creation but certainly do not have a firm belief on the details of origins. I do bring to bare what Ellen White has written about Lucifer's fall before Adam's sin and unfallen worlds in my mind. (But I do not consider her to be an infallible source of truth) I think something unique about the Adventist prespective is that while we do believe strong in certain things, like the literal creation week, we admit that we do not know everything, like the creation of the stars.

This is taken from GRI's website:

 Quote:
2. What was created on the fourth day of creation week?

God said "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night...." Two great lights are described, one to rule the day and one to rule the night. These lights appeared on the fourth day of creation week. The details are not given. They may have been created on that day. If so, the light of the first three days might have been provided by God's presence.

If our solar system existed before the creation week, as some creationists think is probable, then apparently the sun itself was not visible until the fourth day. This might be explained as due to atmospheric cloud cover, permitting diffuse light to reach the surface, but not revealing the source of that light. On the fourth day, perhaps the atmosphere was cleared to permit the sun and moon to be seen for the first time.

Another possible interpretation is that the sun and moon existed prior to that time, but on the fourth day they were "appointed" to specific functions relative to the Earth.

The phrase, "he made the stars also" does not require that God created the stars ex nihilo on the fourth day of creation. Some creationists have held that the entire universe, or at least the visible portion, was created on the fourth day. The text permits this reading, but does not require it. "The stars also" is merely a parenthetical phrase in which God is identified as the creator of the stars without identifying when this was accomplished. The text appears to permit the interpretation that the stars were already in existence, perhaps with planets inhabited by other created intelligences.


 Quote:
Except melvin's favourite bit about snakes eating dirt, apparently. The basic truth is that it requires interpretation to decide that eating dirt is not really eating dirt, and that bruising heels and crushing heads are metaphors.


A literal reading of the Bible means we read it as the author intended it to be read. So we ask ourselves if the author of Genesis meant for us to read these passages as symbolic or not. The creation week was not written in language that would lend itself to a symbolic interpretation of the word day.
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I reserve the humble right to be wrong.

Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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#136536 - 07/29/07 04:21 PM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: Bravus]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 17020
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
OK, Let me comment on what I know, which in some cases is very little.

Atheistic evolutionism:
This is the view taught in most public schools and believed by the majority of the scientific community. Although most of the public has been educated in the public school system, at least in America, less than 20% of the public actually embraces this.

Young-life-on-earth/old-universe creationists:
I am not familiar with this label. Seems this would fit into the Day-Age Theory or the Framework Theory. However it could also be used to describe a position held by many Adventists which I haven't discussed as it isn't a major player in the culture war and I am not even aware of it having a label. Of course this theory has a lot of problems with naturalist thinking. It would still put life on earth at being only thousands of years old.

Ancient creationists:
Another term I am not familiar with. Do these creationists believe that Adam lived millions of years in the garden before sinning? That still doesn't remedy the issue of death since the Biblical genealogies place Adam's sin about 6,000 years ago. Or does this theory teach the genealogies are incomplete?

 Quote:
there are creation myths in almost all human cultures, and won't it be a surprise to all of us if the Aborigines were right?


I would rather look for truth elsewhere, like among the Aborigines, than twist the Bible to say something the original writers of it didn't intend for it to say.
_________________________
I reserve the humble right to be wrong.

Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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#136537 - 07/29/07 04:38 PM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: Bravus]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 17020
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
 Quote:
An ancient creationist perspective fits more neatly with more of the empirical evidence, but of course also has other problems of Biblical interpretation.


What does a world-wide flood do to the empirical evidence? All the carbon in coal and other fossil fuels was at one time in the carbon cycle. So if it became buried during the flood, wouldn't that mean there was a lot more carbon in the atmosphere prior to the flood? That would mean a warmer planet and would throw off carbon dating for anything that lived before or died in the flood.

An astronomer dates the universe by taking its present rate of expansion backwards to the point where the entire universe would have been all in one spot. Clearly based on the uniformatarian assumption. The Bible says that the universe is expanding "[God] alone spreadeth out the heavens" "It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Job 9:8; Isaiah 40:22). It doesn't give us a starting point for us to measure its age.
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I reserve the humble right to be wrong.

Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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#136567 - 07/29/07 08:28 PM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: Bravus]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 17020
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
 Quote:
Sorry, but I can't let you get away with it as baldly as that


I guess I do have to apologize for not expressing my thoughts as clearly as I should have. This comment from Bravus was in response to this sentence I posted:

 Quote:
Naturalists assume uniformatarianism so they will obviously come up with a different conclusion for the chalk's purity. Creationists assume God's Word is true.


In context I was contrasting atheist or agnostic evolutionists with fundamental creationists as those are to two dominant world views that are most often in the news and public discussion. I was not addressing intelligent design or the dozens of theistic evolutionist hybrids.
_________________________
I reserve the humble right to be wrong.

Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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#136584 - 07/29/07 09:54 PM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: David Koot]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1691
Loc: Oregon
>>By posting here, you invited response.<<

...and yours was picayune.

>>To question whether or not one who ventures an opinion has credentials to back up that opinion is appropriate, and can be done in a civil way, as it has been here.<<

My-my, strange beliefs and behaviour...

I admitted to having no qualifications to debate an issue with Dr. Kennedy. It was almost immediately in front of your naked eyeballs when you posted. You elected to ignore it. One assumes it was ignored that you might practice scurrility.

>>...and I am not going to expend more time at this level.<<

Yet, you will expend time on quibbling and self-justification! Go figure...

Take a deep breath and move on. I’m finished with responding to your meretricious observations on this thread.

That said, I would be amiss not to congratulate you on your upcoming marriage: that I do, sincerely (honestly) -- congratulations and good luck to the both of you ;\)

“Getting married off later today,” David Koot

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#136585 - 07/29/07 10:01 PM Re: The Watchmaker - story [Re: jasd]
Bravus Online   content
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 7139
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Anyway, congrats to Dave on his marriage!
_________________________
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate

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