(is the following just wierd or...?)

Mars approaching:

Mars, which is known as the "angry red planet" and ancient "god of war", is making a lot of spiritual waves in the world of astrology. Meanwhile, Red China is trying to prepare for the 2008 Olympics, which are to be hosted in that Communist country. The San Jose Mercury News reported that the government of China is "drawing on decades of Communist Party discipline in preparation for the Olympics." (33) The lighting of the cauldron, which signals the beginning of the games is to take place in Beijing at exactly 8:08 P.M., August 8, 2008. (34) In the astrology of witchcraft, the number eight is the number of the sign of the scorpion. It appears in the fifth month of the zodiac with five months left in our calendar year. In Revelation 9:10-11, we read of a strange army that rises up as follows: "And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon."

33. Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, Sep. 3, 2007, by John Boudreau, Beijing, China.
34. Ibid.

JASD

WELL I would say just wierd

in 2006 on the 6th of JUNE( which is the 6th month )
a lot of christians made a big deal over this date
of time saying this was end of the world.
then in 1999 again alot of chrsitians ( as well as others ) make a big deal about this date of time also sayig the end
of the world is at hand.

so not to make you feel bad, but this has been going on
since ADAM AND EVE fell into sin. any date can apply as
well as an event.

so I SAY it is just wierd

dgrimm60

>>...then in 1999 again alot of chrsitians ( as well as others ) make a big deal about this date of time also sayig the end
of the world is at hand.<<

I don’t really recall much in the way of “The End is Here!” But I do recall a brouhaha regards the possibility that our ‘puter system would default. Yikes.

>>since ADAM AND EVE fell into sin. any date can apply as
well as an event.

so I SAY it is just weird<<

Yes, more recently than Adam and Eve – it were the Apostles who looked for the near-appearing of Jesus Christ; so, exactly,

“It is weird”.

But also ‘more exactly’, just how weird? and why?

I mean, why the specificity of 8:08 PM? (actually, the Olympic Games are scheduled to open at 8:08:08 PM on 8/8/08)

And why was it desired to interweave eights with an International event that occurs only every other Leap Year? (the multiple number of eights represent fortune/wealth)

“dark sentences...”

1.22

>>In the astrology of witchcraft, the number eight is the number of the sign of the scorpion.<<

I know that the Bible does not condone 'astrology' per se, that is, in its 'divining' aspect; but, does it not utilize a form of astrology? or might we be more correct in saying 'Zodiacal'?

And what's with the Bible's use of numbers? a form of numerology? I mean,

what's with the threes, the sixes, sevens, tens, twelves, twenty-fours, etc?

Is there an element of truth in the secular/profane incorporation of the Biblical models?

I may have been mistaken to have used the forward slash in the above fortune/wealth as - fortune does not necessarily denote wealth, but includes such as 'good' fortune: lucky-lucky, as it were.

JASD

IN WORLD WAR II the jews throught the end of
the world was happening. like I said any date
any event people will claim that this event
is the end of the world.
yes numbers do play and important part of the
bible the numbers 3 and numbers 7 are very important
but that does not mean that we have to turn to
other sources out side the bible to show proof of
how GOD operates.
a study was show me serveral years ago (maybe 10 to 15)
that the planets have moved and they are not lined up to
the months as most people think.
so when you say a certain sign is linked to a
certain month people are off here.

besides why would GOD have to lets his people know
about end time events out side of HIS WORD????

as for as the disciples looking for his soon return
yes I am sure they were looking but when ADAM and EVE
had there 1st son they wondering if this was the one who
would deliver them. SO even since mankind has been
seperated from GOD they all have been looking for JESUS
to return.

again not to make you feel bad but this
date and time is not that important.

dgrimm60

>>IN WORLD WAR II the jews throught the end of
the world was happening.<<

I’d qualify the above to those Jews who would not or could not leave for – other places. Many saw the ‘writing on the wall’ sold out before it was too late and emigrated. I suppose they proved the axiom that when things get down to the wire one should be

the first to leave town, get lost, and stay lost.

>>like I said any date
any event people will claim that this event
is the end of the world.<<

As per the end of the world: I’m not one who believes in “the end of the world”; neither, I believe, does the Bible forward such a thing. “End of Ages” perhaps – even ‘recreation’, but end of the world? ...don’t think so.

>>yes numbers do play and important part of the
bible the numbers 3 and numbers 7 are very important<<

Per the number seven, et cetera..., it was used in ancient astrology to signify Earth as the seven-pointed star, Mars was denoted by the six-pointed star, Venus by the eight-pointed star, etc. Seems the Ancients numbered the planets from the farthest planet from the Sun inward, rather than numbering them from the planet nearest the Sun outward, as is presently done. (on another tier level Neptune, the third planet ‘inbound’, is represented by the three-pronged trident; Saturn, by the four extensions of the cross, etc)

Staying with the number eight (notwithstanding the significance of eight in the 'astrology of witchcraft'), or the 8:08:08 – 8.08.08 per the preceding posts – Venus, was identified with Lucifer the light-bringer/bearer {Biblically, also, The Red Dragon}) and was/is signified by the number eight. Weird? or weirder?

>>but that does not mean that we have to turn to
other sources out side the bible to show proof of
how GOD operates.<<

No, one is perfectly justified relying on Writ; however, the above quote seems to presume or suppose that Gd does not use Zodiacal astrology in the Bible – to teach. (note: the prophecy of the Four Beasts of Daniel 7, and the prophecy of the Goat/Capricorn and Ram/Aries of Daniel 8)

The Gospel is written in the stars - and nature, itself, declares Gd. People learn differently – and one has to admit that were the Bible simple to understand – Xtianity wouldn’t have evolved into 30,000+ Protesting .orgs – not to mention the variant groups within the Universal .org...

Moreover, I’ve seen arguments advanced about the sanctity of the Seventh-day Sabbath based on variations of such in a catalog of languages (Friday, also). The Mosaic Law seems to have been anticipated in part by the Hammurabic Code. One might bear in mind that secular literature is incorporated into Holy Writ.

>>a study was show me serveral years ago (maybe 10 to 15)
that the planets have moved and they are not lined up to
the months as most people think.
so when you say a certain sign is linked to a
certain month people are off here.<<

I agree that those who study and apply astrology do so with several small and great anomalies – example: some now question the legitimacy of Pluto-as-planet, Marduk is ignored, and others claim that an entire and unconsidered constellation exists in the celestial sphere of the Zodiac – that is not factored. Etc.

Writ seems to have a few of the same problems with the House of Joseph mentioned in the one instance and in the next instance it is the two half-tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim. Then there are the Houses of Jacob, Judah, and Ephraim mentioned together as separate entities in the one instance and only the two sticks of Joseph and of Ephraim in the next. Etc.

>>besides why would GOD have to lets his people know
about end time events out side of HIS WORD????<<

It may be that there are but very few examples where ‘Gd has-to...’. He is probably more versatile than we sometimes suppose Him to be.

>>as for as the disciples looking for his soon return
yes I am sure they were looking but when ADAM and EVE
had there 1st son they wondering if this was the one who
would deliver them. SO even since mankind has been
seperated from GOD they all have been looking for JESUS
to return.<<

Should one look up the meaning of the names of the first ten Patriarchs (pre-Flood), one finds that they form a synopsis of the Gospel.

Gd uses many forms to teach.

>>SO even since mankind has been
seperated from GOD they all have been looking for JESUS
to return.<<

Yes, there does seems to exist the doctrine of ‘imminency’.

>>they all have been looking for JESUS
to return.<<

The State of Israel seems to be an exception – and well there may be others...

>>again not to make you feel bad but this
date and time is not that important.<<

Thanks, but I don’t feel bad. However, are we not adjured by Jesus Christ to watch and pray – to be cognizant of the ‘signs of the times’?

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth... " Isaiah 65:17 NASB
Regards!

Stipulating: that “world” as used in the above is the vernacular use,

and considering...

Eccl 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

it may be that the “new heavens and a new earth...” of Isaiah 65:17 ought to be read together with the KJV’s use of ‘replenish’ in Genesis 1:28 “...and replenish the earth, ...”, and in Genesis 9:1 "...replenish the earth", that is, indicative of a “recreation”.

JARD

LET me know when AUG 9 2008 THAT is the date
after 8-08-08
then when the world is still here doing the
same thing is did on 8-07-08 and 8-08-08
then maybe you will realize that this date
did not have any importance.

that is 10 months and 15 days away
but I CAN WAIT I will be here 8-09-08 and
also 8-10-08 and also 8-11-08
I am sure you get the picture.

dgrimm60

>>LET me know when AUG 9 2008 THAT is the date
after 8-08-08
then when the world is still here doing the
same thing is did on 8-07-08 and 8-08-08<<

It may be that you’re misreading my posts: I, rather, simply reiterate Writ, that is, “world without end”. Amen and amen.

>>then maybe you will realize that this date
did not have any importance.<<

It may be that you are correct in your thinking; then again, it may be that the world will experience the beginning of profound changes...

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

>>that is 10 months and 15 days away
but I CAN WAIT I will be here 8-09-08 and
also 8-10-08 and also 8-11-08<< [ed.jasd]

As Gd wills...

>>I am sure you get the picture.<<

I’m sure I do. Thanks.

Certainly if it doesn't,we will.

"The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise;Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,And You have wiped out all remembrance of them." Isa 26:14
NASB

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den." Isaiah 11:6-8 KJV

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” Says the LORD." Isaiah 65:25 NKJV

>>Certainly if it doesn't,we will.<<

Yes, but the hour is darkest before the dawn, or...

>>"The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise;Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,And You have wiped out all remembrance of them." Isa 26:14
NASB<<

YLT Isa 26:14 Dead -- they live not, Rephaim, they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory.

What do you think? Should rapha’ or Rephaim have been translated [as interpretation] or left as giants?

Sorry to disappoint you but all I have to go on is the English language bibles and occasional professionals who might lend their expertise in a particular translation. My conclusions are
drawn from comparing different English translations and comparing the Word in reference to the mercy, love, and wisdom of God as He gives me understanding. What I believe does not make that which is true, false. Nor does what I believe make that which is false, true.
If you have drawn a different conclusion after having asked God for His Spirit to lead you, if I were in your place I'd listen to His voice.

"Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not." Proverbs 3:5 YLT
Blessings!!

>>Sorry to disappoint you...<<

No need: I’m not disappointed.

>>...but all I have to go on is the English language bibles and occasional professionals who might lend their expertise in a particular translation.<<

I take your point; however, the YLT in the above translation is also in English, yes?

I too appeal to – ahem – professionals. That said, let me note that, almost entirely, professionals who contribute to our lexicons do so exclusively by researching that which has been written; rather than, from its original and common use – not put ‘pen to parchment’. Sometimes,

one has to be cognizant of the structure (that is, its parts) of a particular word itself for its etymology – rather than to whether or not it was found written contextually by one or another of the ancients.

>>...God as He gives me understanding. What I believe does not make that which is true, false. Nor does what I believe make that which is false, true.<<

True. It is, ultimately, what we believed and acted upon – that will form the basis upon which we will be judged; and, by Jesus Christ’s Parable of the Talents – that judgement is [sometimes] summary.

>>If you have drawn a different conclusion after having asked God for His Spirit to lead you, if I were in your place I'd listen to His voice.<,

I fly on one wing drawing upon that which the good Lord provides. Sometimes He provides from these boards and at other times from elsewhere.

>>"Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not." Proverbs 3:5 YLT<<

Good text. But one bears in mind the relative value implicit in ‘leaning’ upon one’s own understanding. I don’t believe the text implies that we check our brains at the door when entering the .org of choice.

>>"Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not." Proverbs 3:5 YLT<<

It may interest one or another to look at a near parallel:

"The shortest chapter in Holy Writ is Psalms 117 and

the longest chapter in Holy Writ is Psalms 119.

There are 594 chapters preceding Psalms 118 with

594 chapters following Psalms 118.

594 and 594 add up to 1188.

Psalms 118:8 reads..."

KJV Ps 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

YLT Ps 118:8 Better to take refuge in Jehovah than to trust in man,

The thought you proffered with the text Proverbs 3:5 is reflected

in the very center of Holy Writ.

Beautiful short synopsis of an enduring heavenly principle.
I once had a close relationship with a young male Christian who found some mathematical principles he revealed to me that revealed characteristics of the throne of grace that blew my mind away. No one could convince me, nor even yet, it wasn't the Holy Spirit that had led him to such deep and profound knowledge of such principles, that even today I've never seen another human being replicate.
Because of his obvious connection with God, I took with confidence, his advice for a marital relationship that ended up turning into the greatest disaster any man could ever hope not to have, not to mention the depth of tragedy in the lives of others about whom I have no knowledge.
I still believe today he was, and hopefully still is, an earnest servant of Jesus. What did I learn through the whole experience?
For one thing, the most religious of people don't necessarily always give good advice. And secondly, but most importantly, from
Jesus;

"...you follow Me..." verse and book on request
Blessings!

True, But I find entrusting the brain, with it's choices, at the feet of Jesus, gives greater probability of a successfuul outcome. But that's of course only applicable to those who have made poor choices along the way. As, I recall, there was only One, and then maybe a couple, who actually chose to wander the wilderness for 40 years.
Cheers! LHC

>>I once had a close relationship with a young male Christian who found some mathematical principles he revealed to me that revealed characteristics of the throne of grace that blew my mind away.
...
What did I learn through the whole experience?
For one thing, the most religious of people don't necessarily always give good advice.<<

Yes, unfortunately, even those to whom we ascribe ‘prophet’ often times prove misleading. Though the following diverges somewhat..., it substantiates another principle along this line;

I accompanied a professional handicapper to Santa Anita Racetrack and counted myself lucky to be in such company. I followed his handicapping religiously that day – and bet accordingly – race after race, and lost race after race. Meanwhile,

I handicapped the races on the side and would have been able to cash-in six times – on the strength of my own handicapping. Finally,

with him borrowing money from me and with my resources equally in dire straits – I bet on a horse with 80/1 odds of winning in the next race (thinking to either return home broke or to recoup my losses). I won – Beaucoup!

We celebrated my ‘luck’ with steak dinners on the way back to Los Angeles.

Moral of the story? Sometimes, (Gd aside) it is better to rely upon our own understanding – wherever that leads...

(alternately, betting on horses is for suckers ;-)

>>...from
Jesus;

"...you follow Me..." verse and book on request<<

Of course, chapter and verse..., please.

>>As, I recall, there was only One, and then maybe a couple, who actually chose to wander the wilderness for 40 years.<<

The sense of the above eludes me: is there a typo in the above?

I consider ‘astrology’ to be more than less a pseudo science. That said,

am I in agreement with Holy Writ?

Astrology:
1. The study of the positions and aspects of celestial bodies in the belief that they have an influence on the course of natural earthly occurrences and human affairs.
2. Obsolete Astronomy.

I’ve noticed that the doctrine of the 144,000 –as advanced– by the .Org indulges in propagating the [12] ‘temperaments’ coinciding ever-so neatly with that of Astrological ‘sciences’; rather than, taking the [number] 144,000 literally...


Zodiac:
1.a. Astronomy A band of the celestial sphere extending about 8° to either side of the ecliptic that represents the path of the principal planets, the moon, and the sun.
b. In astrology, this band divided into 12 equal parts called signs, each 30° wide, bearing the name of a constellation for which it was originally named but with which it no longer coincides owing to the precession of the equinoxes.
c. A diagram or figure representing the zodiac.
2. A complete circuit; a circle.

zodiac - a belt-shaped region in the heavens on either side to the ecliptic; divided into 12 constellations or signs for astrological purposes

Is astrology Biblical? not in any form? Perhaps then, the Zodiac is Biblical? Of course it is – but in what manner or capacity?

I suggest that it is not only incorporated within Writ but is, in fact, used by Gd to advance prophecy.

True? or false?

Potentially Yes.

Substantiating Texts:

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25 - Jesus

They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. Judges 5:20 Surely stars in their courses refers to *gasp* astrology. In other words, maybe not a good time to go to battle?

>>They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. Judges 5:20 Surely stars in their courses refers to *gasp* astrology. In other words, maybe not a good time to go to battle?

Good catch!

Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Strong’s 4216

Job 38:31-33
/ Mazzaroth: the 12 signs of the Zodiac and their 36 associated constellations

Dan 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee,

"In Job 38:31-33, God asks, “Can you bind the sweet influences of the Pleiades or loose the bonds of Orion? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons? Or can you guide Arcturus with his sons? Do you know the principles of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?”

Thus, God is proclaiming that there are principles in the heavens and that they govern life on earth. Furthermore, God is responsible for bringing forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons. Most Bibles avoid translating this sacred word, ‘Mazzaroth’, because it literally means, ‘the twelve signs of the zodiac’, in Hebrew. So, God created the zodiac and brings them forth in their seasons. He explains that heavenly constellations like the Pleiades and Orion have ‘influences’ that can be unleashed.

In Daniel 1:20 it says, “Daniel was given divine insight by God, even the ability to understand visions and dreams. In every matter of Babylonian wisdom and understanding, they (Daniel and his friends) were ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in the whole kingdom.” Thus, the followers of the Eternal One imprisoned in a land of astrologers cultivated the wisdom of the heavens that was ten times better than the average astrologer of the day."

Re: wresting interpretation of the Book of Daniel before the times of Gd’s ‘unsealing’...(Daniel 12)

>>It is prima facie, of necessity: their work is invalid – except where Gd allows a ‘reading’.

Example: Babylon cannot be the lion of Daniel 7, as so often advanced. Throughout the entirety of Holy Writ the signifier/symbol lion – describes the COI (Ez 19, et al)…, not Babylon.<<

And the Bear...: Was the Bear ever used as signifier/symbol for other than Russia? Too astrological? not according to the Bible.

The book of Daniel employed the Goat/Capricorn to represent Greece. Why?

The Greeks believed themselves ruled by the stars of Capricorn, the goat.

That same book, same chapter, employed the Ram/Aries to represent the Persians.

The Persians, likewise, believed themselves ruled by the stars of Aries, the ram (so far as to carry Ram's heads as emblems in battle).

Precedent obtains. The word of Gd obtains.

Oh, the Bear; Russia/USSR was [is?] the only nation that was allotted three votes in the UN -- that same body seeking world domination and which now supersedes our own US Concstitution.

Bones have historically been used for tallying: one bone, two bones, three bones...

David Hocking, formerly with BIOLA, advances the Zodiacal/prophetical association of the Greeks and the Persians.

(for the most part the above is ‘cut and pasted’ from the thread...

Re: Salvation, Redemption, Restoration??? (Re: jasd) #111822 - 02/10/07 08:40 PM)

[ed.jasd]

Dan 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee,

Daniel, as Writ states, was master of the magicians. Would he have spent, perhaps not inordinately, but certainly, a significant amount of time in matters concerning Babylon’s magicians. That being so,

might not that business have translated itself as subjects in his ‘night seasons’?

Eccl 5:3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business;

Having forwarded the above, let me reiterate that Writ has very specific thoughts on ‘astrology’ per se. That said,

it is irrefutable that Gd used Zodiacal astrology as points in Holy Writ – and did so with His servant called perfect and with a prophet quoted by Jesus Christ in NT literature.

Qualifier: for those who are uncomfortable with certain aspects of the very word of Gd – it appears that

Gd may have used it as a mnemonic device.

Lest it be lost..., the issue of the number 8 in the Chinese culture is – subtle. It is not subtle, as in ‘difficult to understand’, but of itself – by nature. It is not so much

whether there is ‘magick’ in the number 8 per se, but – in that should an individual or an entire ethnic group believe that it is significant – it becomes significant.

It is then – psychologically transformational.

There are somewhat parallels in Writ.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

YLT Rom 10:18 Who, against hope in hope did believe, ...

It said that ‘salvation’ entails what the Xtian perceive as belief and/or faith; however, translated to the secular, or profane – we perceive such ‘faithing’ as... mere superstition?

Before leaving the matter...

In Hebrew the number eight is hnm# (Sh'moneh), from the root Nm# (Shah'meyn), "to make fat," "cover with fat," "to super-abound." As a participle it means "one who abounds in strength," etc. As a noun it is "superabundant fertility," "oil," etc. So that as a numeral it is the superabundant number. [bolded:jasd]

If I recall correctly, the above may be Bulllinger's.

To the above may be added the synonyms robustness or good fortune.

So, do 'they' know something we don't?

I don't, but does Gd attach significance to numbers? so much so as to act upon them?

jasd,

This is most interesting. I think that you might be onto something here.......

My Mom used to say that the devil takes truth and mixes falsehood with it. To use that "explaination" for this topic, astrology, then yes, there IS something to the use of numbers, etc. However, the devil has taken that and perverted it so that the good is lost in the shuffle, so to speak.

Thank you for this thought provoking thread.

Morning Glory

>>My Mom used to say that the devil takes truth and mixes falsehood with it.<<

My mom would say the same to me... ;-)

I’d hazard that both your mother and mine knew more than given credit.

I suppose the adage obtains that the devil is in the details:

Magic or miracle?
Inspiration or reflux?
Part of or apart from?
And so on...
Yet, there are the interests of Gd and those of the Adversary, which both converge and coincide – upon us.
You. Me.
Those we love.
Those we hate.

>>To use that "explaination" for this topic, astrology, then yes, there IS something to the use of numbers, etc.<<

I suggest that the idea, not of ‘astrology-as-condemned-in-Writ’ but of a ‘Zodiacal’ flavor, is intricately parcel the vision of Daniel’s – in which four beasts rise from the sea. It is my contention that that vision never found its fulfillment in the kingdoms Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

>>However, the devil has taken that and perverted it so that the good is lost in the shuffle, so to speak.<<

Read my above – relative to ‘interpretations’ forwarded by those who have disregarded such as

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The injunction is – to “shut up the words” and to “seal the book”.

‘Words’, that is, dabar. ‘Book’, that is, cepher.

The text does not address ‘dream’ that is, chelem, or ‘visions’, that is, chezev, or ‘matters’, that is, millah per se:

Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.

The restrictive qualifiers in Daniel 12:4 disallow all previous constructions upon the various dreams and visions together with their ‘matters’ within the book –

rendering them, well, questionably inspired.

It cannot be denied that it is the BOOK (its entirety vis-à-vis dreams and visions) that was sealed. That same BOOK contains the “dream(s)”, “vision(s)”, ...etc which are purported permissible to have been interpreted before the “...time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

I’ve listened to Lyle Albrecht (enjoyable speaker) advance that “running to and fro” in the Hebrew vernacular was idiomatic and simply meant the perusal of a scroll – from end to end. Umm, Daniel, himself, wrote and scrolled and yet, was at a loss as to the ultimate interpretation of those dreams and visions – those miracles in the night seasons.

I purport and propose that the entirety of those ‘interpretations’ which form the matrix of transient or traveling Seminars – be retired – as being too early-wrested from Writ and therefore:

flawed.

So, was Daniel’s ‘interpretation’ of the dream of the image (Daniel 2) fully communicated to Nebuchadnezzar – and thence to you and/or me? or does its exposition - as most commonly promulgated and accepted, ring somewhat dissonantly - as presently advanced? No? Well, I’ve no great ear but

I question so-called expositions upon the book of Daniel that have in their origins the antiquity of centuries past.

These ‘expositions’ have made manifest the regrettable presumption of expositors – attempting to unseal, aforehand, that which Gd sealed, namely:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, ...

Example: given the exposition currently on the circuit..., does the question of proportionality obtain? you know, the relative proportions between the length of Empires and their representative metals? Or, did the feet and toes really represent the Holy Roman Empire? Or, who/what are they that “shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but ... shall not cleave...”?

Is 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:

“Who then, mayest read?” saith he. And it was answered him, “None, none mayest read – until He openeth that which He hath shut.” (jasd 12:12)

;-)

Question Jasd, do you really talk like this in real life?

JASD

HEY remember me it is now 8 months and 8 days until
8-08-08

but it ia also 8 months and 9 days uitl
8-09-08
so I will see you on 8-09-08

dgrimm60

>>Question Jasd, do you really talk like this in real life?<<

Sid and rudywoofs,



This forum is not “real life”? No? Okay,

I speak this way only in my more lucid moments; otherwise ... ;-)

So, Sid, what do you think?



Does one expect a .org – wresting that which Gd has sealed – is able to rightly “divide” the WORD upon this particular point?

If a .org – notwithstanding the proscription of Gd’s sealing – presses certain ‘interpretations’ upon its constituency,

might a parishioner within that constituency expect that other points of doctrine might also be wrested?

Referencing positions taken upon another current thread...:

It seems to me that a .org’s argument for a certain looseness of meaning and/or application would translate as indicative of a general ‘looseness’ relative to other matters Biblical. That...,

yields constructs – rather than abiding principles. (that’s okay for someone like me; but, for a .org {having the resources of its own BRI or equivalent} to practice construction rather that proper hermeneutics, well...)

Examp:

Ex 20:10
CATTLE: 0929 bĕhemah

1) beast, cattle, animal
a) beasts (coll of all animals)
b) cattle, livestock (of domestic animals)
c) wild beasts

Well, one can easily see where I might be going with the above; that is, what elliptical understanding of The Law might permit the 19th century Sabbath observer – to hitch horse to buggy – easing one’s church-going? whereas, the OT observer “picking up sticks” upon the Sabbath – was stoned – to death.

Is a certain ‘looseness’ in the formulation and construction of ‘doctrines’ desireable? Or did something change in between time? If so,

what? and, how are the degrees of change determined?

Situational? Cultural? Convenience?

>>HEY remember me<<

Of course, dgrimm60, should I not?

>>...so I will see you on 8-09-08<<

As I’ve noted before: Gd willing...

Perhaps, it is not wise to presume upon Gd, yes? no?

It is my understanding that the word, "forever", in the Bible often refers to the lifespan of something that ends with conditions extraordinary, such as the flames that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, which flames were reported to burn forever.

Obviously those flames ceased burning as soon as those cities were burned up.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
2 Peter 3:11,13 KJV NASB
Regards!

dgrimm60

It may please you to know that the Chinese and sundry pundits may be proved wrong per the Saxo Bank:

"China’s stockmarket down 40 per cent." (timeframe, '08)

or from elsewhere:

"...the odds are 3-1/5-2 that China will experience an Avian Influenza (bird flu) epidemic in '08." ...and will give it to the rest of us - that translates to pandemic.

Ouch!

Proportionality? Daniel’s second chapter!?

The entirety of the Image, less feet, spanned a period of approximately 1093 years; that is, from the 616 BC beginning of the Neo-Babylonian Empire to AD 476 when its last Emperor was deposed by the Hun Odoacer. (there remains, however, the question of just how Byzantium played-out vis-à-vis the Image dream and Rome proper).

It is purported by ‘Prophecy teachers’ that the toes and feet of iron and clay represent a selected ten (take your pick) kingdoms of Europe – with a final disposition of the Image occurring by a “stone cut out without hands” smiting its feet (Daniel 2:34,35).

Note: Byzantium excepted, the years since the fall of Rome, AD 476, number 1322 years (the terminus being AD 1798) or 1531 years (the terminus being the current year AD 2007), take your pick.

The ‘interpretation’ or explication afforded in Writ for Nebuchadnezzar’s Image dream seems to satisfactorily obtain – as (separately and corporately comprising) correspondingly proportionate relatives to the “metals” of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

That’s as far as it goes.

Unless, there is an latent or implied ‘gap’ or ‘intermission’ following AD 476, there is a – problem: there are, according to ‘Prophecy teachers’, 1322 years (or 1531) representing the feet of iron and miry clay [until their destruction by the stone cut without hands]. That scenario conjured by ‘interpretation’ is

Rube Goldbergesque.

Rather, Gd is Architect, Sculptor, Creator, and Potter..., able to depict with greater finesse – a timeline possessing, relatively, a Prophecy vehicle without the absurdity of feet that are proportionately - so much greater than the rest of its composition - or body.

LifeHiscost,

>>It is my understanding that the word, "forever", in the Bible often refers to the lifespan of something that ends with conditions extraordinary, such as the flames that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, which flames were reported to burn forever.<<

Well, yes, there is the semantical “forever” lending itself to exposition in varying directions – according to context and/or perception..., etc.

>>Obviously those flames ceased burning as soon as those cities were burned up.<<

As far as my senses are able to apprehend ‘reality’, I agree that there does not seem to be evidence of a continuing fire – further and apparently – consuming those cities. Moreover,

there are sufficient texts in Writ substantiating the premise that forever does not always imply eternal.

>>"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
2 Peter 3:11,13 KJV NASB<<

Amongst the several things I’d note is – that space is a vacuum and sound needs atmosphere to carry either a roar or a great noise; therefore, on the face of it, the text seemingly addresses – condition, earth.

I think, also, that there is a seeming parallel found in

Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. ... v24 [They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

and in the passage of Isaiah 66 preceding and following verse 22.

Taken together, the above sustains an understanding of a “new earth” featuring a qualitative dissolution (dissolved, in text, is: inherently – “...either the futuristic present or the process of dissolution presented”) rather than a destruction of substance. In other words,

the “new earth” is one in which “moral and natural imperfection have been purged” – AClarke (ed.jasd)

Isa 45:17 [But] Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34 KJV

Too deep for this simple servant. I'm of the opinion that salvation is not dependent, for the most part, on proper understanding of this point. However this does not preclude the reality that misunderstanding can bring much avoidable difficulty. Hope you'll include me in your prayers and then accept that the Lord's will be done.
Regards!

>>Too deep for this simple servant.<<

Aw, pshaw, LHC, ...no humble pie for you – I credit you more

>>I'm of the opinion that salvation is not dependent, for the most part, on proper understanding of this point.<<

Agreed, in part; however, I begin to suspect that more than simple belief is encouraged, perhaps, even necessary.

>>However this does not preclude the reality that misunderstanding can bring much avoidable difficulty.<<

We then, are all in a peck of trouble.



I read the above as speaking to qualities rather than, intrinsically, substance; that is, this very earth – which abides forever.

Not as weird as:

On september 11th, two planes (1+1) crashed into twin towers that resemble #11 standing up, these stand in the middle of the State of New York, which was the 11th state to join the union. Both of the towers were 110 stores tall, the first flight to crash into tower was AA(11) flight 11, which had 92 passengers onboard (9+2 = 11). Flight AA 77 had 65 passengers on board (6+5=11).

September 11th is 254th day of the year (2+5+4=11), after September 11th there are exactly 111 days left in the year.

Exactly 11 years prior to the event, GHW Bush made his famous "New World Order" speech before the Congress on September 11th, 1990.


Not related, but both in Daniel, and revelation the "evil horn" that comes out among the other 10 is the horn#11.


Coincidental?

Thanks, for reminding me - that was really interesting, wasn't it?

Reminds me of the coincidences between Lincoln and Kennedy.

Re: the horns of Daniel and Revelation...

I suppose that depends upon how one factors the events; that is, some would see the "evil horn" as the 11th; whereas, others might focus upon the dissolution or uprooting of the three - thereby, establishing the "evil horn" as the 8th horn

Speaking of "factors"...

how might the 'orthodox interpretation' regards the Image of Nebuchadnezzar factor such kingdoms as the Islamic Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Mongolian Empire (the most contiguously vast Empire in history), Spanish Empire (the most vast Empire in history), etc... Incidentally,

those empires purported to represent the various metals of the Image of Nebuchadnezzar - dealt in usury/interest -

in contrast to those listed in the above - who eschewed usury/interest (by and large as some [etc...] did engage in interest at later dates in their kingdoms).