Silver Spring, we have a problem. - Adventist Forum and Adventist Chat

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#14640 - 07/25/05 05:17 PM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: Johan]
Neil D Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow. Registered: 08/10/00 Posts: 11499 Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...	Quote: *Tom Wetmore said:* Quote: *wicklunds said:* Well I know one thing, even if what you are saying is true, I would not choose to put myself in any congregation where this Dick Duerkson were going to be giving any message. Say what you want to about my faith, but I know this much... If I might chime in here, that would indeed be your loss. I can only conclude that such a statement would be made from an obvious position of willful ignorance and rather obvious prejudice. I say "obvious" since it is rather apparent that you do not know Dick Duerksen nor anything about him. Since it is apparent to me that your mind is closed I won't even attempt to pry it open with the truth.... Tom Amen! Amen! and Amen! I am aquainted with Dick Dirksen, his being involved in Company One [a PUC drama group] and subsequent following his lectures given to confrences from time to time. The man is given to inovation, both in preaching and in evangelism. The reason is quite simple...the traditional model of preaching and evangelism maintains marginally the status quo membership for the church...and slowly changes it into a self serving group. Dick is using innovative ideas to change the thinking of the SDA church in a more positive mannor and creating a positive atomsphere in attracting new members who have more creative ideas for the SDA church. The negitive casting of Dick is what causes the bright lights to wink out for lack of support. Quote: He has a preset orientation to the SDA Chruch. This "preset orientation" is ultra conservative in orientation, and very narrow...This is what is so sad...In every sense of the word,these ideas are embodied in the words "a follower, not a leader" of ideas. The tail nor the head of the organization. What is truely sad is that these same technics to evangelise since EGW times, have been used in the old culture [which were sucessful THEN] but culture has become ...diffeent...more sophisticated...and most of all, changed in values and attention...the old techniques don't work unless you glean the principles and apply them to new techniques....Some have even gone so far as to create NEW principles that have proven effectivness in creating new congreations...Unfortunately, some hold to the view that the old ways are better...It is indeed a sad commentary. People like Dick Dirksen and Ron Gladden worked hard to bring about this change in mindset and attitude...As evidence by these two men, some continue to work for change...others got burned out within the church and feel the need to work outside the church...but are still a part of the SDA movement... _________________________ Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana
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#14641 - 07/26/05 05:15 AM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: res0pgdo]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	Hey!! noone will oppose your new methods in the church...in fact, you will be welcomed with open arms in many sectors. Out with the old and in with the new seems to be the order of the day. It doesnt necessarily make it a thus saith the Lord though. Time will tell. When the fruit of apostasy has fully ripened, the exodus and betrayal will be vast and violent. Your best friend will sell you out for a mess of pottage to the Roman inquisitors because you shunned his "new methods" during a time of relative ease. The same could be said of some who defend the "pillars". But I generally see these new methods as gross spiritual betrayals of truth. This includes the new theology and the Ron Gladden "cell church" phenomenon. Go and have your large meetings with no scripture readings. You can bet where scripture is not being read and upheld, truth will not prevail. Dick Duerkson or not... _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#14642 - 07/26/05 06:38 AM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: ]
Neil D Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow. Registered: 08/10/00 Posts: 11499 Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...	Regarding that ""cell church phenomenon" that you complain about....and that you imply is bad for the church because it doens't get the new people involve in bible study... Well, my church decided to plan for the future, and a elected a group of us to plan for the growth of the church...we came to the conclusion, thru the SOP that cell groups, you know, that "phenomenon" that you so distastefully sneered at, was what we came to conclude would be the best evangelism that we could provide. The interesting thing is that cell groups is not only bible based, it is also friend based. IOWs, you invite your friends to a great gettogether, have a bible studies, prayer [for your friends and family and yourselves] and you become more intimate with people...very satisfying over time. So, Dennis, you can sneer all you want to over cell groups, whose base is in the SOP, God ordained method for evangelizm, God centered intamcy between people, known and be known among church member, and God ordained from the bible and SOP. I don't know if l would invite you to our little get together, and based upon your posts, I don't know if my group would be willing to invite you.... And that, my dear Dennis, is you loss... _________________________ Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana
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#14643 - 07/26/05 12:34 PM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: res0pgdo]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	Niel, I did not mean for my last post to be a personal attack against your post, but rather a response to the last three previous by yourself, Gregory, and Tom. I am sorry if I seemed in a sneering attitude before, but I see these churches for what they truly are, compromise with the enemy. But I must say that generally these cell churches and new methods churches, employing new worship styles, attempting to cater to a more "contemporary" and "modern" needs group have failed to live up to remnant standards. But even so-called conservatives are failing in this respect now... We have had all the light shed on our path in times past, now all we need to do is deny ourselves the luxuries of Western thought and seek out where we wandered off and re-enter at the narrow gate. If we are not humble enough to admit this, there will be no revival or reformation. Liberal or conservative, traditional or new theology...it matters little. We must remember how God has lead in the past or we will continue to stumble over past failures. Respectfully, Dennis _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#14644 - 07/26/05 12:59 PM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: ]
Bravus Husband and Father Registered: 09/05/04 Posts: 5719 Loc: Brisbane, Australia	(Response to the whole thread, not just Dennis' last post) Once again, the notion that anything new is by definition bad, because it's new just seems bizarre to me, given how new the creation of the Seventh-day Adventist church was when it was created, not that long ago in historical terms. If there's something theologically wrong with a different approach to 'doing church', then that case can be made, but 'it's bad because it's new' is not that case. _________________________ Bravus's Blog is linked in Bravus's signature which also contains his name as requested by LynnDel
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#14645 - 07/26/05 01:25 PM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: ]
Gregory Matthews Registered: 05/10/00 Posts: 7057 Loc: Colorado, USA	Bravus: The issue is: 1) Dennis casts all into one basket, and fails to recognize that there are marked differences. 2) He reads the posts here with a closed mind, and really does not hear what people are saying. _________________________ Gregory
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#14646 - 07/26/05 01:26 PM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: ]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	I would concur as long as the old light received has not been neglected in the "new movement". The problem is finding that several months down the road the person who brought in the "new method" stole it from an apostate. We don't look for new methods where the Lord has not lead in the past. _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#14647 - 07/26/05 01:27 PM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: ]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	No I hear loud and clear...Its just that I do not submit... _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#14648 - 07/26/05 08:45 PM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: ]
Tom Wetmore Latitudinarian Registered: 06/21/00 Posts: 899 Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA	Dennis, Since it is my perception that one of the few voices that you seem consistently open to is that of EGW, perhaps you would take the time to search for and carefully consider what she has to say about "new methods". Just to get you started here is one of my favorites: Quote: With intense interest God is looking on this world. He has noted the capacity of human beings for service. Looking down the ages, He has counted His workers, both men and women, and has prepared the way before them, saying: "I will send My messengers to them, and they shall see great light shining amid the darkness. Won to the service of Christ, they will use their talents to the glory of My name. They will go forth to work for Me with zeal and devotion. Through their efforts the truth will appeal to thousands in a most forcible manner, and men spiritually blind will receive sight and will see of My salvation. Truth will be made so prominent that he who runs may read. Ways will be devised to reach hearts. *Some of the methods used in this work will be different from the methods used in the past, but let no one, because of this, block the way by criticism."* {7T 25.1} - emphasis added Please notice exactly Who it is that EGW is quoting. That last sentence of the quote that EGW attributes to God himself could not be clearer and more appropo... In the event that this is not enough or that you are unable to find more statements by EGW along these lines, I am happy to post more, as I have a whole bunch of them... Tom _________________________ "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news.
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#14649 - 07/27/05 04:20 AM Re: Silver Spring, we have a problem. [Re: Johan]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	Tom, Thank you for your caring and eloquent post. One thing worth pointing out to the casual observer though... There is a class of of Seventh-day Adventists who will rationalize what they do as God's work by employing "new methods", but when they go to church they make sure Ellen White is not quoted from by those ones following her (and God's) counsel faithfully. In your case I am not sure if you fit into this category, but it would not surprise me. And if such is the case, what bad form it would be to quote this passage in your defense. This is the worse kind of hypocrisy and evasive unbelief known to modern religion. But here again I don't really know if you are one of these... Dennis _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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