Potentially Yes.

Substantiating Texts:

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luke 21:25 - Jesus

They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. Judges 5:20 Surely stars in their courses refers to *gasp* astrology. In other words, maybe not a good time to go to battle?

>>They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. Judges 5:20 Surely stars in their courses refers to *gasp* astrology. In other words, maybe not a good time to go to battle?

Good catch!

Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Strong’s 4216

Job 38:31-33
/ Mazzaroth: the 12 signs of the Zodiac and their 36 associated constellations

Dan 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee,

"In Job 38:31-33, God asks, “Can you bind the sweet influences of the Pleiades or loose the bonds of Orion? Can you bring forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons? Or can you guide Arcturus with his sons? Do you know the principles of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?”

Thus, God is proclaiming that there are principles in the heavens and that they govern life on earth. Furthermore, God is responsible for bringing forth the Mazzaroth in their seasons. Most Bibles avoid translating this sacred word, ‘Mazzaroth’, because it literally means, ‘the twelve signs of the zodiac’, in Hebrew. So, God created the zodiac and brings them forth in their seasons. He explains that heavenly constellations like the Pleiades and Orion have ‘influences’ that can be unleashed.

In Daniel 1:20 it says, “Daniel was given divine insight by God, even the ability to understand visions and dreams. In every matter of Babylonian wisdom and understanding, they (Daniel and his friends) were ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in the whole kingdom.” Thus, the followers of the Eternal One imprisoned in a land of astrologers cultivated the wisdom of the heavens that was ten times better than the average astrologer of the day."

Re: wresting interpretation of the Book of Daniel before the times of Gd’s ‘unsealing’...(Daniel 12)

>>It is prima facie, of necessity: their work is invalid – except where Gd allows a ‘reading’.

Example: Babylon cannot be the lion of Daniel 7, as so often advanced. Throughout the entirety of Holy Writ the signifier/symbol lion – describes the COI (Ez 19, et al)…, not Babylon.<<

And the Bear...: Was the Bear ever used as signifier/symbol for other than Russia? Too astrological? not according to the Bible.

The book of Daniel employed the Goat/Capricorn to represent Greece. Why?

The Greeks believed themselves ruled by the stars of Capricorn, the goat.

That same book, same chapter, employed the Ram/Aries to represent the Persians.

The Persians, likewise, believed themselves ruled by the stars of Aries, the ram (so far as to carry Ram's heads as emblems in battle).

Precedent obtains. The word of Gd obtains.

Oh, the Bear; Russia/USSR was [is?] the only nation that was allotted three votes in the UN -- that same body seeking world domination and which now supersedes our own US Concstitution.

Bones have historically been used for tallying: one bone, two bones, three bones...

David Hocking, formerly with BIOLA, advances the Zodiacal/prophetical association of the Greeks and the Persians.

(for the most part the above is ‘cut and pasted’ from the thread...

Re: Salvation, Redemption, Restoration??? (Re: jasd) #111822 - 02/10/07 08:40 PM)

[ed.jasd]

Dan 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods [is] in thee,

Daniel, as Writ states, was master of the magicians. Would he have spent, perhaps not inordinately, but certainly, a significant amount of time in matters concerning Babylon’s magicians. That being so,

might not that business have translated itself as subjects in his ‘night seasons’?

Eccl 5:3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business;

Having forwarded the above, let me reiterate that Writ has very specific thoughts on ‘astrology’ per se. That said,

it is irrefutable that Gd used Zodiacal astrology as points in Holy Writ – and did so with His servant called perfect and with a prophet quoted by Jesus Christ in NT literature.

Qualifier: for those who are uncomfortable with certain aspects of the very word of Gd – it appears that

Gd may have used it as a mnemonic device.

Lest it be lost..., the issue of the number 8 in the Chinese culture is – subtle. It is not subtle, as in ‘difficult to understand’, but of itself – by nature. It is not so much

whether there is ‘magick’ in the number 8 per se, but – in that should an individual or an entire ethnic group believe that it is significant – it becomes significant.

It is then – psychologically transformational.

There are somewhat parallels in Writ.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

YLT Rom 10:18 Who, against hope in hope did believe, ...

It said that ‘salvation’ entails what the Xtian perceive as belief and/or faith; however, translated to the secular, or profane – we perceive such ‘faithing’ as... mere superstition?

Before leaving the matter...

In Hebrew the number eight is hnm# (Sh'moneh), from the root Nm# (Shah'meyn), "to make fat," "cover with fat," "to super-abound." As a participle it means "one who abounds in strength," etc. As a noun it is "superabundant fertility," "oil," etc. So that as a numeral it is the superabundant number. [bolded:jasd]

If I recall correctly, the above may be Bulllinger's.

To the above may be added the synonyms robustness or good fortune.

So, do 'they' know something we don't?

I don't, but does Gd attach significance to numbers? so much so as to act upon them?

jasd,

This is most interesting. I think that you might be onto something here.......

My Mom used to say that the devil takes truth and mixes falsehood with it. To use that "explaination" for this topic, astrology, then yes, there IS something to the use of numbers, etc. However, the devil has taken that and perverted it so that the good is lost in the shuffle, so to speak.

Thank you for this thought provoking thread.

Morning Glory

>>My Mom used to say that the devil takes truth and mixes falsehood with it.<<

My mom would say the same to me... ;-)

I’d hazard that both your mother and mine knew more than given credit.

I suppose the adage obtains that the devil is in the details:

Magic or miracle?
Inspiration or reflux?
Part of or apart from?
And so on...
Yet, there are the interests of Gd and those of the Adversary, which both converge and coincide – upon us.
You. Me.
Those we love.
Those we hate.

>>To use that "explaination" for this topic, astrology, then yes, there IS something to the use of numbers, etc.<<

I suggest that the idea, not of ‘astrology-as-condemned-in-Writ’ but of a ‘Zodiacal’ flavor, is intricately parcel the vision of Daniel’s – in which four beasts rise from the sea. It is my contention that that vision never found its fulfillment in the kingdoms Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

>>However, the devil has taken that and perverted it so that the good is lost in the shuffle, so to speak.<<

Read my above – relative to ‘interpretations’ forwarded by those who have disregarded such as

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The injunction is – to “shut up the words” and to “seal the book”.

‘Words’, that is, dabar. ‘Book’, that is, cepher.

The text does not address ‘dream’ that is, chelem, or ‘visions’, that is, chezev, or ‘matters’, that is, millah per se:

Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.

The restrictive qualifiers in Daniel 12:4 disallow all previous constructions upon the various dreams and visions together with their ‘matters’ within the book –

rendering them, well, questionably inspired.

It cannot be denied that it is the BOOK (its entirety vis-à-vis dreams and visions) that was sealed. That same BOOK contains the “dream(s)”, “vision(s)”, ...etc which are purported permissible to have been interpreted before the “...time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

I’ve listened to Lyle Albrecht (enjoyable speaker) advance that “running to and fro” in the Hebrew vernacular was idiomatic and simply meant the perusal of a scroll – from end to end. Umm, Daniel, himself, wrote and scrolled and yet, was at a loss as to the ultimate interpretation of those dreams and visions – those miracles in the night seasons.

I purport and propose that the entirety of those ‘interpretations’ which form the matrix of transient or traveling Seminars – be retired – as being too early-wrested from Writ and therefore:

flawed.

So, was Daniel’s ‘interpretation’ of the dream of the image (Daniel 2) fully communicated to Nebuchadnezzar – and thence to you and/or me? or does its exposition - as most commonly promulgated and accepted, ring somewhat dissonantly - as presently advanced? No? Well, I’ve no great ear but

I question so-called expositions upon the book of Daniel that have in their origins the antiquity of centuries past.

These ‘expositions’ have made manifest the regrettable presumption of expositors – attempting to unseal, aforehand, that which Gd sealed, namely:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, ...

Example: given the exposition currently on the circuit..., does the question of proportionality obtain? you know, the relative proportions between the length of Empires and their representative metals? Or, did the feet and toes really represent the Holy Roman Empire? Or, who/what are they that “shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but ... shall not cleave...”?

Is 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:

“Who then, mayest read?” saith he. And it was answered him, “None, none mayest read – until He openeth that which He hath shut.” (jasd 12:12)

;-)