Hello eveybody,

I am from Holland, i ve been searching for truth almost 10 years now. I have got some really big problems. Every big issue in Seventh day adventism makes sense: the antichrist, the prophecies of Daniel, the uniting of church and state in America etc etc.

However when it comes to Ellen White i have some real big problems. She said that some present at the conference would be subject to the seven plagues. She said that an angel told her this. The bible says that only the father knows when Jesus returns. Furthermore this could not be a conditional prophecy because no matter how hard the early adventists would work, it was impossible for the nations to unite in a New World Order at their lifetime.

However there are many personal testimonies on the internet of people who have become sd-adventists. For example Professor Walter Veith:

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-...earch&plindex=1

Also doug Batchelor talks about divine intervention in his life.

My own thoughts on this matter: - maybe satan knows that in the endtimes there will be a revival for keeping the commandments of God, he hates it when people accept God s authority so he links his own authority with the Sabbathkeepers by using a false prophet in sheep clothes
- Maybe we should just ignore the mistakes of Ellen White and look at the bigger picture.

I wish God intervened in my life!

greetz,
from Holland

WELCOME truthseeker ... I am sure we will be blessed having you here.

You made the statement ...



I think this is a good idea. We need to look to the Bible. Ellen White has many many errors. She was not infallible. She is the lessor light. There is a lot of good in Ellen though. I am sure you can find some good if you are interested in her study. Like you say .... just throw out the bad and let the good in. OUT with the BAD ... in with the GOOD.

But I would stick with the Bible. Ellen is so abused. We are not to take her every word ... instead we are to look to the Bible.

She knew there would be fanatics about her writings. So, she tried to prevent this abuse when she said ....





You are safe with the words directly from the Bible rather than an intermediary.

The Good News of the Gospel is simple and plain enough for all to understand ... even those with limited resources.

God Bless your walk with Him. He will intervene in your life and He IS.

The problem with this is that the human heart is desperately wicked and therefore seeks for excuses to discard or ignore what it does not find convenient. It is the same reason many people don't study the Bible. They would rather be ignorant of it so they can on about their merry way feeling good about themselves.

The Bible also contains "errors," but they are not such as would cause anyone to be lost if they believed every word of the Bible. The same with Ellen White. Many will be lost because they rejected the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, but I can't imagine anyone's losing their salvation because they followed what God revealed through Ellen White.

What, if anything, do you find "bad" in the Conflict Series, for instance, or in something like Steps To Christ?

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

If there is a desire to study Ellen White ... then I would highly recommend what you have suggested. Just be prepared to compare it with scripture and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to discern ... throw out what does not mesh with scripture.

And I would rather not dwell on the things in her writings that are not scriptural. That is left between the individual and the Holy Spirit who guides. Like I say ... I just toss them . I could give you a long list ... but what would that serve. You would not agree. So, can we agree to disagree? Instead ... I will take the good that I find and be blessed with that. I don't have to believe that each and every word of hers was prophetic.

Thank you for all of your comments. I am only interested in the truth, even when it is very unpleasant to me. It is easy to believe in a cheap gospel and lies like "the law has been nailed to the cross". So you don t have to worry about my wicked heart, because if I wanted to believe in lies, i would already believe the attacks on seventh day adventism i have investigated on the many anti-websites.

But my problem is this: Ellen White claimed that an Angel told her that some of the conference would be alive at the return of Jesus. To me, this diametrically opposes the bible when it says that the predictions of a true prophet always come to pass. Conditionality, like i mentioned before, could not be the case here. So i was thinking to myself, maybe did the angel show the conference as a model for all the generations of seventh day adventists. My loyalty to scripture and personal experience in deception forbids me to ignore the possibility that Ellen White was in fact a deception. Ellen White herself said that we should throw away her writings when it contradicts the bible, but of course this could also be a subtile way to hide the fact that she was in fact not a true prophet.

However Seventh day adventists are the only constisten protestant denomination left that uphold the bible, so it would be better for the devil to not have invented these Christians in the first place. I do believe that Ellen White was a true prophet but before i take her writings as an authoritive source, i have to fill in all the inconsistent gaps.

I really appreciate you guys helping me out here,

OK, we're close to agreement here. I wouldn't say throw it out but rather put it on the back burner, like we would with the Bible when we see something that we either do not understand or that seems to be wrong. We can lay it aside and maybe come back to it later when we have read more or seen more evidence. Sometimes what seems to be wrong or contradictory at first is solved by something we see later on or even by the discovery of new information. In other words, don't be so hasty to conclude that either the Bible or Ellen White are wrong.

Just think how many SDAs would have lost out on blessings if they had waited for modern science to verify her writings before they acted on them. But because they went ahead and followed her advice on health even before science said she was right, many SDAs were able to be instrumental in verifying the truth of what God was trying to teach us.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

No Problem there.

There are many things about Ellen White that will discourage you if you let it. Just take the good and don't be bothered with the bad. Just treat her like any other author you would read. This idea of ALL or NOTHING ... just does not wash with me. I know of NO author that I totally agree with every word on print. So, don't treat Ellen that way.

I would just dispense with this idea that she is a prophet. She may be ... but so what. It still means that you have to have the Holy Spirit impress you as to what she says is true ... of course after prayer and study.



There are lots of "authoritative sources" ... I would not sweat over that issue. And I am not sure what you mean by filling in the gaps. Again ... I would not worry about the gaps. She is not infallible. So, when you see error ... just shake your head and move on. It is far better to focus on the beauty of her writings when you study her ... than to focus on her error. The error is there for a reason I think. It just shows she is human and we should focus on the greater light ... the BIBLE of course.

May I suggest of few books to read that discuss the subject which you can access at this link: http://www.ellengwhite.org/

Messenger of the Lord by Herbert E. Douglass

A Prophet Among You by T. Housel Jamison. This book has a very good chapter on the Bible tests of a prophet.

Believe His Prophets by Rebok.

Arthur White's comprehensive biography of Ellen G. White.

The vision you refer to was in 1856. About 1900, Ellen White made the statement that Christ would have come about 6 years before if the church had fully accepted the message that God sent to the church in the messages of E.J. Waggoner and A.T. Jones. I believe that. Now if that is true, it means that Christ could have come about 1895 or so. If that had happened, of course some of the people at that conference in 1856 would have still been alive 40 years later to see Jesus come. Theoretically there is nothing keeping Christ from coming-- nor has there been anything keeping Him from coming-- since shortly after 1844, except the fact that the church has not made itself ready (Rev. 19: 7).

God is not waiting for particular political events to happen before He can come. He is only waiting for the church to be prepared, and when she is ready, He will allow those events prophesied in the Bible to happen. God wanted Christ to come for His church a long time ago, just He planned for the Israelites to go right into the Promised Land. It was only their stubbornness and refusal to believe and obey that kept them out and caused them to die in the wilderness. The same has been keeping the church from entering into the heavenly promised land.



As Paul said, "Let everyone be persuaded in their own mind." Read widely and ask the Lord to lead. May God bless!

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

I personally would not waste my time away from the scriptures reading these good books. At this point ... I don't see the point of studying all this. It just takes us away from the Light of God. In the end ... it does not matter one bit if Ellen was in error or not. It does not change how we should read her. It does not change her purpose for us which is to point us to the Greater Light.

All these divisive issues only hurt the church. Focus on the REAL thing. WE are to "abide in Him". I don't see how reading these books qualifies as abiding.

But if you are fascinated by this ... then by all means. But for me ... I will dwell with my Saviour. I will abide IN Him.

If you do really want to look into this stuff. I would suggest a more recent book with up to date research into this topic ....

MORE THAN A PROPHET ... by Graeme Bradford


Order Information

More Than A Prophet may be ordered direct from the publisher,
Biblical Perspectives which is the work of Samuele Bacchiocchi who is one of the church's scholars. He only accepts the best research. I went to a Sabbath School class at Andrews with him. He is very knowledgable.

Another good one is ...


From Sinai to Golgotha"

By Alden Thompson OR ... Any of Alden's books on Ellen White

Alden again ... is one of the best scholars in the church and he has studied Ellen White a great deal. I was impressed with what a sincere and humble man he was when he stayed at our house while doing a seminar. A real man of God.

Welcome truthseeker007.

Your enthusiasm in seeking and learning the Truth indicates God has already intervened in your life, for our fallen natures do not respond to God's call.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

B;lessings in your continuing journey of faith.

If you study thoroughly the lives of some of the Holy Bibles most illustrious individuals, you would find them revealing faults far greater in magnitude than Ellen White has ever been accused of. How then can we find confidence for trust that we should accept them as spokesmen for God?

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority." John 7:17 NKJV

In drawing my own conclusions about the veracity of her writings, if I had nothing else to base my conclusion on I would feel ashamed to bring her life in disrepute by my comments, at least until I had a string of hospitals and schools that circle the globe which could be ascribed to the wisdom of my counsels, as she has.
However I do believe one reason God uses people, despite our obvious flaws, is so that we will keep our eyes on Jesus and not let the messengers detract from His light and beauty, as a result of our own darkness.

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty..." 1 Corinthians 1:27 KJV

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

Thanks again for the responses. We are actually talking about an angel that is setting a date for the return of Jesus. I believe that the book in Revelation ,which tastes sweet and became bitter, was the great disapointment. In the time of Ellen White people really believed Jesus was coming soon, but first the message has to be delivered to every tongue, nation and tribe. Now i know that God cannot lie and i don t think angels lie either and this is where it gets complicated. Maybe God permitted a demon to show Ellen White that she would be alive at the coming of Jesus. This would be a win-win situation because the prophecy of the book that tastes sweet but became bitter had to be fullfilled and satan could use this action to demonstrate to the world that Ellen White was a false prophetess.

I am sorry that i am a perfectionist. But i think this is of the utmost importance, because seventh day adventism is a movement that relies on evidence instead of irrational traditions and emotions. If i am able to have the answers on everything i want to know and i have no inconsistencies left, then the bringing of the 3 angels messages is a piece of cake. Then I don t have to look up to individuals who are highly honoured in this world and have most of the master degrees. I am glad that there are so many scientists who are seventh day adventists (Walter Veith etc) but there are far too less people who just go talk to the pentecostal leaders, catholics etc and show them evidence that they are in error. Of course I understand that we should use the atmosphere of peace and friendly relations in the Christian community rather as a means of convincing spiritual leaders of Babylon that they live in error than creating hostility and full opposition. I believe that seventh day adventism is at a very fragile point in history. Some of the people want to play church and become a friend of this world, others just have isolated themselves from criticism so that when the church comes under attack they will not hold on to their beliefs and others are thinking that they have to do nothing and they are waiting for the holy spirit or some divine intervention forgetting the fact that as Jesus suffered we should suffer too in this world because a student is subject to his master. Anyway, it is easy to point at others' mistakes but that s not what i am trying to do here. All i am saying is that, unless we collect evidence and present it in a logical manner to the world, we unitedly and individually carry our cross, seventh day adventism is nothing more than a 'strange' church. Therefore I think it is relevant to explain the big inconsistencies, otherwise the work cannot be done. Thank God, He is raising scientists opposing the evolution theory, because without it this church just does not have any chance to succeed.

Thanks again for helpin me out,
I have been discussing things with myself for so long now, that i need new and better insights from people who know more about this church than me

Yes, there is confusion even in this forum. So the best thing to do is to search the Bible for the truth yourself. As for EGW, study her writings and compare it with Scripture and the Holy Spirit will let you know whether she is a false or true prophet.

Gerry

What you are looking for is 1] SECRET knowledge, or at least solid evidence that has been hidden and 2] facts, not faith.

Been there...done that...doesnt exist.



You want confidence...when you witness. you want to be able to show others that you are right and that they should evaluate the evidence/truth and should convert...Sorry, but your premise is all wrong. It is NOT evidence that converts people.It is the Holy Spirit that converts people.And the Holy Spirit works by the Word...Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. IOWS, show your faith from the bible....and not the adventist presentation of your faith...




There is something wrong here as well. I don't believe that the SDA church is as you describe. Granted, there are a few, but there is far more just trying to survive, get thier children thru church school/college...They have been under an economic burden for many a year and they stuggle with that by being worthy of thier labor...and having two jobs or three per family. And with attempting to get the children interest in helping the world, it is very hard when the parents have to compete with the various opertunities available to their children...And the older generations, when they have a respite from all those years of labor, TAKE IT...they are tired.




Evolution overpowering the church??? Well, that is interesting...the church has been dealing with that sort of evidence for many a year...say like oh, several hundred years in one form or another...Actually, what really works in presenting the Gospel is presenting it in relationships...connecting with God and with your fellow man...rather revealing and it works better than facts and figures...Of course, that is my opinion...just like you are not gonna do this because it is too scary, but again, it's an opinion....



I suggest a small group study...with a different church entirely and present your evidence of your faith....it will do much to help yourself...

"As for EGW, study her writings and compare it with Scripture and the Holy Spirit will let you know whether she is a false or true prophet."

Thanks for the advice, but how will the Holy Spirit let me know??? I cannot rely on feelings. Feelings brought me into the New Age movement. Please tell me how?

I think the reason many have issues with the SOP is because of some statements or predictions that were made that turned out to be false (ie the shut door, or the world will not see the year 2000). Some of these things the SDA leaders refuse to address. They want to sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. It won't. I have no problem with most of what I've read from EGW (I haven't read a whole lot, but a few things). If I come across something that I believe to be erroneous or presumptuous, then I ignore it. I have the same attitude when I read something presumptuous in the bible. For example, Paul clearly thought that the Lord was coming in his day. Some people try to clear it up by saying that he was writing for the generation that would be alive when Christ comes. I don't believe that. If that were true he would have said so. He really did think that some of the followers of his time would be translated. Now does that mean I will discard anything Paul has to say? No. I believe that he was inspired, however he was not all knowing and infallible. There is no one that is all knowing and infallible except God. He has chosen what he would and wouldn't reveal to us in his word and through his prophets. Another thing to think about; does the bible indicate that God's prophets are infallible? Can a prophet say something that isn't true? Or mix truth with presumption and error? I gotta do some reading on this.

I don't know if Neil has changed or it I have. Even though Neil and I don't always agree ... I do like what he is saying. (Except for the last statement which I may be misunderstanding.)

I do tend to disagree with the approach or need of truthseeker to have all the ducks in a row before witnessing. The Gospel is simple. Just go out and preach it. The distinctive doctrines of the SDA church are fine and good but that is not what you need to witness about. Preach JESUS.

Now ... to the last suggestion of Neils ...



I would hope you don't see the need to present "evidence". Just preach JESUS. The rest will come. But don't feed a baby meat. Give them milk first. Perhaps I have misunderstood Neil's comment and he meant to witness of Jesus rather than 'evidence' of church doctrine. I can hope.

And keep in mind that our mission is not to convert Christians .... it is to convert those who DON'T know God.

Ellen White testifies that God in vision told her the exact day and hour of the Lord's second coming. It was not from a "demon". That WOULD make Ellen White a false prophet.

You're making good points. Of course Paul thought Christ was coming in his day. He had no idea the Second Coming would not occur for over 2000 years. He could not have understood or comprehended how that could be true. Imagine if an angel told you there would be six thousand more years before Christ returns. You would probably think it can't be an angel of God.

Ellen White said that the angels of God always presented the Second Coming of Christ as being very near. There are good explanations for this. For one thing, each of us may only live a short time, and for those that do die soon, it is as if Christ's return was very soon because the next thing we're aware of is either judgment or seeing Christ. For another, if we were told Christ would not return for hundreds or thousands of years, we would tend to put off getting ready for it.

It's important to remember, however, that the Bible does contain a number of indications that there would be a "delay" of Christ's return. (See, for instance, Matt. 24: 48; 2 Peter 3: 4.) But Paul and others of that time clearly did not understand the implications of these texts and others like them.

Paul was not wrong to write that he thought he would be among those alive at the time of Christ's return. He was writing from his personal viewpoint, and God did not prevent prophets from writing their own viewpoints. It's like the Psalmist writing about the joy of smashing the heads of babies against the wall. Those are human viewpoints, certainly not God's. God loves those babies, even if they are Babylonian babies. But at that time you couldn't expect an Israelite to see it that way.

All this just goes to show that when people "attack" Ellen White as being fallible, the same argument can be made about the prophets and apostles.

When it comes to the Shut Door, Ellen White never claimed that God showed her that the idea of the Shut Door as initially held by many Millerites was correct. On the contrary, it was dreams and visions that caused her to change her view of the Shut Door. She saw that she could not have been right about that. Please see Early Writings 42-45, 250, 251; and 1 Selected Messages 62-64, 74.

She wrote: "For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever close to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled me to see the true position.

"I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

".... I was shown in vision, and still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

"Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection..." (1 SM 63).

Ellen White never did say or write that the world would never see the year 2000.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

I agree with your last statement that if it was a demon, Ellen White would be a false prophet.

Do you have a reference for Ellen White's testimony that "God in vision told her the exact day and hour of the Lord's second coming"? Is it GC 640?

Dear One in regards to your statement about the Holy Spirit and your "feelings" having led you astray-- The specific counsel given by Jesus in regards to the Holy Spirit and His leading-- study the Gospel of John for ex.John 15:13 ...when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. v14- He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and show it unto you. (My advice: Study the Words of Jesus- God in the flesh as He lived among us.) And pray, He will not forsake you, or leave you.

I would go even further and just claim the promise for this. HE has promised to never leave nor forsake ... so you really don't need to pray for it. Just claim it.

Annie ... I am not saying that you meant he should pray for this. IT is not clear. But I did want to clarify that it IS promised.

John317 says ...



Ellen White feels differently from that opinion.

I've never been able to understand this philosophy. I've heard of it before. But, can you tell me ... what it is that you would be "putting off"?

For one thing ... we could die at any time. Our time on this earth would end. We need to be right with Christ NOW. It does not matter WHEN Christ comes. We need to know Him NOW.

And ... can you tell me what it is that one would need to "DO" before the Lord comes ... other than love, know, and accept Him. How does the date or time of His coming affect this? IF you believe in Christ ... why would you say .. "Oh he is not coming for years ... so I think I will stop believing in Him until the time is closer" ?

This whole idea seems so unrealistic. It is stupid to put it in simple terms. I just can't see ANY Christian believer thinking this. It makes NO sense. Am I just too sheltered ?? OR what?

I do hope you can explain it to me because I keep hearing this statement and it causes me to shake my head.

My concern is that if this guy presents ADVENTIST bible truth in a non-adventist bible study, [of which, for his edification he needs to do so, he should come away with a couple of clear understandings....1] not all Christians are Adventist [for some, this is a "duh" statement, but for others this may be a revelation in itself] 2] even non-adventist Christians still will follow the bible 3] non-adventist Christians are [hopefully] more interested in relationship principles than doctrinal issues and yet, they can still be Christian...and on thier way to the promised land.

It would be an exercise in maturing for Christ....and learning to be tolerant of other's beliefs...

And as for the Spiritual Milk/meat diet, Red, don't you worry your pretty little head about that...Many Adventist need to eat more meat rather than have a spiritual milk diet...which I am SURE will fly into the face of our health message in some way...

Me too...I have wondered this for many a year...but never had it verbalized before...

Ok, maybe since there is so much talk about that, and since Christ hasn't come, maybe I should start talking this way? My Lord delayeth His coming, so I will go out and eat drink and be merry.....

[/tic] [Red, pls note. I spelled it correctly this time!]

I don't know about all this agreement between us Neil. What is happening?

And I do apologize for the "meat" analogy. I should have said "vege meat". I forgot the audience for whom I was speaking. I don't want to offend the sensitivities of vegetarians.

Matt. 24: 48-51: Jesus said, "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' and shall begin to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day when he doe not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and shall cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; weeping shall be there and the grinding of teeth."

2 Peter 3: 3-4: "Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.'"

Read 3 T 255; 8 T 252; 1 T 101, 102, 277; TM 237-8.

Excuse my ignorance ... but I still say WHY? WHY would it matter to a Christian WHEN Jesus comes. We must be ready NOW. His coming for US could be at ANY second.

Our life on this earth could end NOW. That would be our coming. The next thing we would know ... he would be waking us up.

Dear Truth,

I have enjoyed reading thru this thread and all of the posts. Thank you for bringing up such an important topice to discuss. I agree with the advice/ opinions that you study the Word of God first.

In regards to your question as to how you will know that it is the Spirit of God who is impressing you as you read the Bible.......before you begin your study, pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you and help you to understand what you are reading. I have been amazed when I have prayed this prayer....what I had read and did not "get", after that prayer it was as if my mind had cleared and when I reread the text in question, the meaning was perfectly clear!!

I can understand your concern in regards to having been "led" into the new age movement in the past. Before you even open your Bible, pray the armour of God (Ephesions 6:11-17) to be applied to you, and also for the Spirit of God to help you to understand what you are reading. See, in praying the prayer for the whole armour of God to be applied to you you are asking for protection for your head: your mind and understanding are encased in your head. The principalities and powers of darkness seek to influence our minds, thinking, and decision making. God promises in this text to protect it for HIM.

"Grid or belt your middle with truth"......you know, that deep "gut feeling" that we get when we KNOW deep within that something is right or wrong......you can't say how you know, you just do. God protects that gut feeling for HIM.

"Having the breastplate of righteousness": Literal protection for our hearts, the organ that pumps blood throughout our bodies and thus keeps us alive. Many peoples have used the referrence of "heart" which is really our higher level of brain function which would literally be included in the Mind/ Brain. But here, I believe we are praying for God to protect our bodies, and internal organs to keep us healthy. It is difficult to comprehend deep sprirtual things when we are not well.

Our "feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of truth": that wherever we "walk", in our daily lives which does not always include the "spiritual", for us to walk/ behave in the way that God would want us to. Our infuence on others at work, home, friends, people with whom we do business. Always ready to share the love of God with them.

"Taking the shield of faith": Combines all of the above, in my opinion in that "we walk by faith and not by sight." All of our questions and doubts will not be explicitly answered in this life. There are a lot of things that we must accept by faith when we are convicted of God to do so. All of the evidence for evolution will probably NOT be disputed, for instance. But, if you honestly believe what the Bible teaches about creation, then that is a truth you must hold onto by FAITH.

Faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1. We are to live by faith in God, whom we have not seen, by faith in the life and death of Jesus for our sins, whom we have not literally seen. For, if we "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved"!!! Acts 16:31.

I pray for the protection of God in your life, and for the Holy Spirit to guide you as you continue to search out the Truth that God wants you to have.

Morning Glory

Oh, and Red....have you taken the temperature of Hell lately????

Of course it shouldn't matter to a Christian WHEN Jesus comes, but we're dealing with human nature as it is, not how it ought to be. Many people have the idea that they can go on sinning and stop when they see the signs of Christ's coming. People have told me this. They are obviously wrong, but that's how many people's minds work.

You also have people who may not SAY Christ has delayed His coming, but their actions prove that this is what they really believe.



Both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy both make it clear that, human nature being what it is, people tend to put off what they think is not immediate. I am talking about putting off getting ready for the Second Coming. Many don't even realize it's necessary to "get prepared" for it. They think all a person needs to do to be prepared for Christ's return is be "justified." That's false. If that was all that's necessary to be ready for Christ to return, He could return right now. Read 2 Peter 1: 1-11.

Think of the freeing of the Israelite slaves from Egypt as their justification. They were freed from slavery, as justification (dying in Christ to sin) frees us from sin. But they disbelieved in God's promises to defeat the giants. They refused to go further and consequently almost all of those who came out of Egypt died in the desert. They never made it to the Promised Land. "They could not enter in because of unbelief" (Heb. 3: 19).

The subject has been dealt with. If you care to read the explanation, start with Herbert Douglass" "Messenger of the Lord" on the "shut door" issue. As for her alleged plagiarism, start with Robertson's "The White Truth", which was actually published before Walter Ray's "The White Lie." As for her alleged borrowing of the health message, a charge made in Ron Number's book, see Drs. Brand & McMahon's answer with their book "The Prophet and her Critics". The former is a scientist with a PhD in Biology, and the latter a physician. There are others who have written in her defense. F.D. Nichol, Veltman, and others. My former pastor has just submitted a manuscript for publication showing how fast and loose Walter Ray was in trying to prove the copying charge. Furthermore, several years ago, the GC hired a law firm who were, as I recall & understand, experts in copyright laws. The charge of plagiarism was not confirmed. Also, bear in mind that no author or publisher in EGW's time ever charged her with plagiarism.

With mounting evidence that disproves the charge of plagiarism, the tactics against the Lord's messenger has changed somewhat. The last 2 Adventist Forums I attended in Southern California which featured Dr. Jenks & Walter Ray. I heard not a word about plagiarism. What I heard instead were charges leveled against her character, about her alleged lavish lifestyle, etc.

Since even the Bible has its detractors, it is no surprise that prophets would have the same. In fact, I don't know of a Biblical prophet that did not have a hard time, even persecuted, stoned and killed.


Gerry

We are justified by His blood ... so if we put blood in the equation ... could you define what else we need to obtain Salvation ... I am not after a lot of fancy words ... I want something simple that a child could understand. Please just limit it to one word.

Blood + ..... = Salvation

Please help me by filling in the blank so I can visualize how this works. I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

As I have already mentioned ... you might want something more current. All those books were written years ago and are old hat. Try something new that was written THIS YEAR in a scholarly fashion .

MORE THAN A PROPHET ... by Graeme Bradford