Well .... I prefer the weather in the West.

No doubt. Dylan & I are heading to St. Paul, Thursday. Oughta be some cold up there..

oG

I agree with what you said about struggling with something and submitting yourself to God. The only reason I stated that I felt homosexual feelings are genetic or hormonal is because a lot of people notice these feelings at very young ages. Of course there is the issue of abuse, introduction to gay pornography, etc. However, I doubt most homosexuals experience this. Most grew up in a normal environment free of abuse. When they reached the age at which one develops sexual attractions, they found themselves looking at people of the same sex. Like you stated, they didn't just decide "you know what, I think I'll decide to like boys instead of girls." I do believe that God has the power to overcome this. But it's not easy. I have a few co-workers that I consider friends who are homosexual. They've all given me the stories of attempts at changing themselves. Most have decided that it won't happen and therefore choose to live thier lives as a homosexual. Therein lies the problem. When you give in to something in defeat, then you are on a slippery slope. But if you give something to God and say "I don't want this, but it's got a hold on me. Please help me with this," then I think you're on the right track.

So at what point do you decide that it doesn't work? At what point do you decide that its a waste of energy and time? You don't know, so you have no basis to say they should not give up.

Because there is always one more thing I must doing wrong, God always has an excuse. This is a formula for frustration and a certain form of madness. And because God must always be right, then I must always be wrong.

I think its terribly misguided to say its because someone gave up. If I'm born without a leg, I can pray all I want and its not going to grow back. And if you would say its because I didn't have enough faith or I gave up, that would be seen as horribly cruel by most people.

Unfortunately there are those who see that as reasonable conclusion even in the case of a missing limb. We have biological examples of people who have chromozomes of a male and the body of a female. The Bible has nothing to say about this. We are facing ethical problems that require a lot more creative solutions than you just need to keep trying.

I agree with your post, PN. Thanks for sharing.

Richard, you've asked a good question. "At what point..?"

When we violate the Law of God (let's assume that it's a sexual sin) we immediately receive three consequences into our heart. Guilt, shame & fear. These three things hurt. God sends them in His goodness to awaken us to the fact that we have sinned against Him.

Now, there are only three ways to go. Cover the pain, deny the existence of right & wrong, or repent. No other options exist.

* People try to cover pain in many ways. Drugs, acohol, music etc.. Do you realize how many people they bury in this box canyon?

* Deny. This is the wellspring of atheism, agnosticism and unbelief. This too is a box canyon with no way out, People in this condition slowly lose their ability to pray. They lock their heart to God. But there is a way out if we acknowledge our sin and repent.

* Acknowledge & repent. This requires that we go back the way we came and face our sin. Broken, we call out to God in repentance and He hears. He restores us back into fellowship with Him.

God's government is good & righteous. His Spirit guides us away from sin.


oG
Jer. 29:11

I disagree with this. I find that most pain comes from ego and lack of awareness. If we sin, we sin against ourselves. For me the whole purpose of ethical behavior is to reduce suffering.

I have found that many things that I have suffered from have simply been made up in my own mind. And I believe from experience that many of these ideas that suggest we need a savior for some imaginary depraved state are self fulfilling.



Practicing this for the first 35-40 years of my life NEVER worked. There was always something else to repent from or the same mistake would repeat itself or a never ending saying I was sorry. Or the suggestion was that I wasn't praying the right thing or trying hard enough.

What happened when I stopped believing in this method was that I gained self control, felt happier, felt lighter, and I actually began to grow. Atheism and Agnosticism can be very positive shifts in awareness. In many ways they were an acknowledgment that this type of mental gymnastics simply doesn't work and opened me up to a different way of living my life very successfully.

I have posted this quote from George Smith before but I think it is worth repeating...

Evidently, from what I understand you to say, the concept of Christianity which you practiced for some years didn't 'work' for you. Who would want to argue with that? You know what you experienced.

However, the fact remains that for millions--no, hundreds of millions of people, the concepts which have been shared by others on this thread, such as repentance, victory over sin, etc., HAVE worked, over the centuries. For example, Cardinal Bellarmine wrote that in his day, (16th c.) "almost an infinite number" of heretics had been put to death by the church. The faith of Jesus worked for them. Thus, it would not be accurate to dismiss the Christian religion as succesfully practiced by those hundreds of millions of people, as 'imaginary' or some sort of mind game--or, as Marx famously (or infamously) put it, 'an opiate for the masses.'

Thus, the possibility remains that your understanding of the Christian faith, or perhaps your practice of it, may have somehow been different from theirs.



These statements of yours tend to corroborate my perception of your situation. Evidently there were other, psychological factors, which could be attributed to education, parental influences, various species of perfectionism, etc., which may have affected your understanding and practice of Christianity. Perhaps you now have dealt with those other issues. I wonder if if might not be a good idea to get a fresh start, from the ground up, and re-build your understanding of Biblical Christianity?

DAve

You've said it very well, I think. I would say that it is utterly impossible for a true homosexual or transgender person to change on their own. Like I said before, I came very close to giving up on ever changing. I struggled for more than 30 years. I wasn't struggling the whole time, of course. Much of that time I just gave in to my feelings and desires, because I felt helpless to do anything, and I was tired of being defeated all the time. So I know from personal experience just how difficult if not impossible it can be. The only way a person can really change is through the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm absolutely convinced of that. It can only be successful when a person determines they want Christ more than anything else, even more than they want their emotional needs satisfied. I realize now that for almost all of those 30 years, my god was actually my emotional and sexual needs. I wanted Jesus but not at the expense of those inborn feelings and desires. They were everything to me. I had to be willing to give them up completely before God started freeing me from them. Before that, I had prayed to be rid of them, but then I wanted to keep some of them. I wanted every once in a while to "go back for a visit," as it were. But of course that was impossible. A visits turns into a stay.

I think that's the way it is with all sin. I don't think the homosexual sin is any different in that way from any other sin the Holy Spirit convicts us of. Jesus must have all of us, our whole mind and body, not just part of us or for a while. He refuses to play second fiddle.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

What brings you to this Christian board, Richard?


oG

That is clear OG. He wants to "witness" to us.