I happen to have more faith in Christians than you do John317. You apprear to be a skeptic and believe the worst in people.

I don't believe that people want to "twist" scripture for their own purposes. I believe most here DO take "ALL" scripture when they interpret scripture. I don't believe that most here have "reasons to want to believe it says something besides what it actually says.." I actually feel it is hurtful for you to have such a negative view of Christians here.

Folks. This pious view of Christianity and religion is harmful. It does not witness well to our neighbors to have such an elitist attitude. I see sincere Christians here on the forum. We study ALL of the Bible. And we sincerely and honestly DISAGREE. There are many sincere scholars IN our church that disagree. Just because they do not come to the conclusion of John317 does not mean that they have "reasons to want to believe it says something besides what it actually says". I feel this is offensive to sincere Christians.

NONE of us agree on ALL issue. We ALL see some issues differently. If we didn't ... then we would not come to CA to express them. When we disagree with John317 ... it does not mean that our faith is any less or we have "reasons" to disagree. Sincere Christians CAN disagree. We will only know all truth when we get to heaven.

Don't believe the "twisted" protrayal of my beliefs by John317. Let me speak for myself. It does matter what we believe the Bible is saying ... contrary to his protrayal. We have to sincerely study to show thyself approved unto God. But we as Christians WILL differ in our understandings. And if we can't show some love and tolerance for those differences ... then well ... we are not being Christian.

Let's not knock down our fellow Christians. We are to study and to "do". But the conclusions that we come to and the works that "do" will differ. God accepts our efforts as our best if we give Him our best. The "one true way" that one person 'sees' may just turn out to not be the only 'one' true way. We are all faulty humans. Let us not place ourselves as God.

I believe firmly in our church and its teachings. But teachings and doctrines are of men. They are our interpretations written down. Each denomination has them. I happen to believe in ours. But I do show understanding and tolerance for those who sincerely believe differently. I refuse to have a judgmental elitist attitude towards those who do not tow the line with my interpretations of scripture. I refuse to say that they have "reasons" to believe differently than I do.

Especially during this Christmas season ... let's try to "love one another" for loving one another will "win" another for Christ for Christ IS Love.

I'm with you on that!



You have found the real meaning of 'Christianity' - , to put oneself on the side of, or align oneself with the 'good.' What else is more important? - the doctrine of the 2nd coming? I don't think so!!! The Bible itself?? Never!!!

It's the only way to go. I bless you!

There are actually quite a few other options than these.



You have assumed that using one's brain is a matter of pride. As humans its our only option. When you state that you have decided to follow the Bible it is based on thinking that you have done with your mind which you have stated "is not an infallible source of information with an ability to decipher truth from fable."

Choosing to to use reason is a commitment to search for truth. To me, any other choice is simply being lazy. And when you choose the Bible you have essentially chosen your option number one, only its the Bible writer's perception of reality you have given your mind to.

I have seen my mind's ability to self correct through honest evaluation, observing consequences and paying attention to my feelings of compassion and suspicion. I have repeated the benefits of this approach over and over. The major enemies of the mind are pride, which causes us to lie to ourselves, trusting authorities without evaluation and experimentation, and despair.

Otherwise it works pretty good and gets better at making good decisions.

When someone says we need to take the whole Bible into account means that they are trying to avoid the specifics. Its kind of like a "blender" form of reasoning. You kind of put all the messages of the Bible into a blender and take the average. This way you can avoid those difficult passages which are typically dismissed by the "mysterious ways" clause. Or more creatively, we can assign those difficult passages to the personal beliefs of the author and not actually something that God said. Sort of a disclaimer that the publisher doesn't not endorse or support all the beliefs of the author.

An example is every time you see a discussion on the unpardonable sin. What is disturbing is that there actually is an unpardonable sin and that its so ill defined. The resulting effect for Christian believers is the sense that there is still a slim chance that one might have unwittingly committed the unpardonable sin since we aren't exactly sure what it is.

And when we look at the specifics we find no specific condemnation of slavery and when we look at the Bible's application of women's rights its pretty horrendous. And if it is so lacking in these areas, why do we still presume it to be an expert on human sexuality, psychology, sociology, medicine, and science?

Well there certainly is the more superstitious "man on the street" versions of Buddhism and Hindu, but to assign the idea of God as Christians understand it is to misrepresent what they actually teach.

Buddhism emerged out of Hindu modes of thinking. Most Buddhists would call themselves atheists. Hindus have the idea of Brahma which is the great unknown life force from which all their gods are incomplete representations. This would correspond with the Unknown God of the Greek philosophical school. Most intellectuals of these philosophical schools would clearly see the gods as myths representing exaggerated psychological components of men and consciousness.

What is interesting is that if you do some research on Hindu god Krishna you will find a Christ prototype with many of the same myths and characteristics of Jesus including wise men, virgin birth, born on Dec 25, mad king trying to kill him as a baby, etc. Krishna was the man/god Hercules in the Greek mythos.

Joseph Campbell's books on the Power of Myth explore this in a modern sense. His interview by Bill Moyers is well worth seeing on DVD. On a side note, Joseph Campbell was a huge influence on George Lucas and the way in which Star Wars was developed as a story.



No, but they are certainly creative applications of these texts to the myth of Jesus.

Question: Is there anything more important than your salvation?



oG

Philosophically, I have not found one world view that doesn't fit into one of these three categories.

1. We trust someone else's perceptions of reality. For example: some form of organized religion, some kind of cult, or modern science.

2. We trust some form of inspired writing. For example: the Bible, the Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.

3. We trust in our own ability to decipher truth. For example, a mix of church tradition and the Bible, a mix of modern science and the Bible or agnosticism.

Now the issue arises that if we choose to trust the Bible, who's interpretation do we trust or how do we know how to interpret it. The Bible itself teaches us to rely on the Holy Spirit so that is where we begin. Logically if we trust the Bible we are going to follow what it says. Since it tells us to pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance, that is what we will do. Then comes the issue of sola scriptura. That is, letting the Bible interpret itself. That is the difference between category one and category two. Category one relies on a church or something extra-Biblical to interpret the Bible. I have known some Adventists that use Ellen White in such a way they put themselves into category one. Category two uses sola scriptura or the Bible alone (with the aid of the Holy Spirit) to interpret the Bible.



Certainly intellectual pride can blind one to truth but that is not what I am talking about. We have five senses and the ability to reason. Do we trust our own five senses and our ability to reason enough to use them to govern our lives? Some do this and seem to do well in life. That was not the case with me. When I have allowed my senses and reason to govern my life, things have never went well. I have come to a point of distrusting my senses and ability to reason. I have total distrust of self. For me, I had to find something outside of self that I could trust and use to govern my life. So that put me in category one or category two. I decided to place complete trust in the Bible and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth. I do not expect to ever get to a point in my life when I regret having placed implicit trust in the Bible.

A small comic from Russell's Teapot expresses this for me. If you are easily offended then please skip the link below.

So Simple from Russell's Teapot

It makes no sense to me that some god needs to go through this complex bloody sacrificial drama to gain the right to save us from something we simply can't verify is true in the first place.

If there is salvation that provides abundant life here and now then I have that already. I know the power of lies. To put any more effort into gaining some future salvation by simply saying I accept the Lord Jesus as my Savior and going through the mental gymnastics required to stay in that favor is a waste of time.

The bottom line that almost every Christian believer retreats to is fear. The fear of the loss of my salvation. This is not what I want to build my life on.