Exactly how do you know if the Holy Spirit is interpreting the Bible for you or your mind is doing the interpreting? It would seem that you would have to use your mind somewhere in that equation. And according to you, you can't trust your mind.



Then why dialog with us at all? Are you saying that we are getting the Holy Spirit from you in your very words? If you distrust your senses, how do you know you are understading what you read? How do you take a stand on anything if you can't trust anything you perceive?



Well we all have to have mentors, but the gift of a good mentor is that they teach us how to govern ourselves without being dependent on them. That's called growing up. I think its foolish to willfully stay ignorant.

I think its important to be true to one's self in equality with being true to others. If you aren't out there making mistakes then you aren't learning and you aren't being creative.

Great discussion on the part of all here. I wish I'd had the opportunity to take part more, but the last couple of days have been pretty intense. It's the weekend here now, so hopefully I can take a more active part. I think I find myself more 'betwixt and between' many of these dilemmas than most who have posted so far...

Personally I don't "twist" what scripture says. I study to learn ... not to twist. But if I did try to twist ... that would be destructive. I would call that Blasphemy. I have no intentions to speak for God. I do my best to learn of God. But then we all do and we all disagree on what it is we learn.

I don't think we are condemned for doing our best to learn of Him.

Faith. That is the simple answer. If I go with option two and decide to believe sola scriptura, then I embrace the promise that God will send His Spirit to me if I am willing to follow Him.

Now what if it is all a lie? A fancy fairytale? Just mumbo jumbo of centuries past? Religious myths of the ancients?

When I come to the end of my life I do not expect to regret loving my neighbor, observing the Sabbath rest, paying a faithful tithe to a church that feeds the hungry, counsels the depressed, nurses the sick and teaches love, hope and faith. If at the end of my life I discover there is no god and all religions are simply myths, I seriously doubt I will regret having followed the teachings of the Bible.



I try to be straight forward and transparent. What anyone gets from me is a Biblical, Protestant worldview. Is that the same as the Holy Spirit? Well, I would like to think some things I say are occasionally inspired but like all others, I am still a sinner, not perfect and certainly not infallible.

The issue really is to decide what the basis will be for our world view. Are we going to trust in an organization, such as the church? Are we going to trust in the Bible alone? Are we going to rely on our own ability to reason and decipher truth and error? OR do we go through life not embracing anything - since we can't be sure of anything we remain skeptical of everything? We have to go down one of these roads.

Thank-you, Richard, for providing some background info, and for the link to your blog entries on the subject. I should like to follow through with taking a look at some of the features of your stated understanding of God and the Christian faith, and compare same with my own understanding. Here are a couple of statements that struck me as particularly important:

"I went to a church where the preacher had an altar call almost every Sabbath service. After weeks and weeks of pleading, threats of God’s disapproval, and the recounting of the fearful consequences of not going forward, at the age of 12 I went down front barely holding back the tears."

Sounds like a rather inauspicious beginning. Not a pleasant experience, but apparently motivated at least in part by fear??? Where is the love? Did you experience love for God, or was it primarily a fear response?



Again, it seems a bit heavy-handed. Obligation, "you'd better not!" and stuff like that. Was that your perception at the time?



Oh how sad! That was your understanding? But once again, where was the love? Sounds like a rather loveless, frightful obligation rather than relationship. I should add that such is not precisely my understanding of the teaching of Scripture. Unknown sins were and are covered by the daily. Only when and if a person became AWARE that s/he had sinned, did s/he need to take action. A person is not condemned for something s/he does not know about. That would be horribly unjust. But apart from that technicality, I seem to see a perception about what you think God is like. What is God like? He is in the business of saving people. He WANTS to save people, He will do everything He can to save people, He is faithful, He began the good work within each one, and He WILL bring it to completion, if only we will let Him! If there is something in the life that needs to be taken care of, a loving God will find a way to bring it to the attention of a person, and guide and assist him or her in dealing with it.

Well, enough for now. I would be interested in your response, Richard.

Dave

Richard,

haven't had the chance to go thru the whole hour video, but it is interesting on what I have seen. And I tend to agree with a lot of what Sam Harris says, so far. Summed up, at this point, with me only having seen 1/2 of it, I think that belief suspends science inquiry. And I have to agree with that...However, the theory that our beliefs are what we want them to be, I have to question...Not in the thought that we approach the bible with preconcieved assumptions...because those who do come with preconcieved presumptions will be lead accordingly. But there are those who come to the bible with a willingness to learn from God...And those who do, come to suspend all preconcieved presumptions as far as they are able...to be lead by the Holy Spirit.

Those who come to the bible to learn of God, learn an experimental knowledge of God Himself. If one does this, then one tends to learn RELATIONSHIP principles, not doctrine...and has a more full understanding of God...and Who He is...and what He wants...and where to go....

Any other type of approach is dependant upon pharisical principles, aka "reward for good behavior" system. Which will get you in trouble with other powers that be...

Just my thoughts...

That is a simple answer... The truth is that life is not simple. These types of answers, by now, are cliches. It takes little more work than this.



Other than the specific nature of a Sabbath rest, all of these don't require the Bible. The devil is in the details. And as long as you wax poetic on grand ethical themes you can make most things look pretty good.

Once you state that people need to be saved from the wrath of god, are sinners, and unless you repent you are going to hell, you have a whole different set of assumptions. These ideas have human consequences that historically have not been pleasant. These too are Biblical themes.

Generally when someone says they take the Bible literally I take that pretty seriously because the Bible literally says some pretty disturbing things. And historically until the age of enlightenment Christianity would look like something closer to and in many cases worse than radical Islam. This includes Protestants.

It was the age of reason that freed us from many of these Biblical principles of government. Christianity likes to take the credit, but this is a rather dishonest rewrite of history.

So, reason that is free from violence and coersion and is connected with the human capacity to love, has demonstrated itself to be a rather effective ethical guide when developed within a community of people.

My perception of god was clearly based on fear. This was for good reasons both based on what I read and what I heard being preached.



I have done a rather extensive exploration of the Bible and Ellen White and clearly the final basis of any relationship with this god is based in fear. There are certainly pictures of god that can be made by selecting certain texts and passages that are far more palatable, but if one is to take either or both of these sources authoritatively then in the final analysis god is a god of fear with some rather manipulative modes of double speak.



I have found absolutely no evidence for this. This type of dependency created a life of second guessing for me. I have no problem taking responsibility for things that need improving in my life, but they don't change by waiting for some god to change them.

They do change when I follow a process of rigorous honesty and openness. With these simple ideas there is often an understanding of cause and effect and when these are understood I have the ability to choose a different way. There is no wasted energy on determining if I am sinning or not or if some god is pleased or if I still have my salvation.

I believe in the idea that with awareness there is choice. The goal of my life is no longer to be saved, but to explore this life with as much creativity, curiosity, joy, and love as possible and to participate in other's who have these same goals.

I find it much easier to simply observe all of life without preconceived presumptions. When I compare this to looking at the Bible, the Bible is mostly a dark chronicle of an angry god. It has some bright spots when it comes to the philosophy of Jesus, but overall it really has a very poor view of humanity.

I am rather amazed by the ability of some humans to transform and grow in spite of what has happened to them. For the most part this growth in unconscious and proceeds in those who are open to it.

You can call it God if you want, but I find no god like this in the Bible.

Hi Richard.

Like you I have seen the love of God in many people in life. Some of the most beautiful in the world are those who have walked through very deep waters.

What were your parents like in their faith?


Best wishes,


oG