Okay, several people have expressed interest in starting a thread dedicated to issues of NT Greek which arose in the WO thread. I personally don't feel a burden either way in terms of WO, but I AM very interested in NT Greek. So, I am willing to be the one to start this thread. Several Gk issues have been discussed so far, including prostatis as it occurs in Rom. 16:1, diakonos, and others. Where shall we start? Please, please, KIM that this is intended as a TECHNICAL thread, and contributions will be subject to vigorous peer review.

Dave

Started a new section for this..

Stan, do we have a moderator for this thread?

Perhaps Ivan Blazen or S. Kubo?

We will try to make it so that everyone who has an interest and wants to can understand it. All of the Bible has actually been translated so well and in so many good translations that a person doesn't have to know any foreign languages to understand what it's saying. All one usually needs to do is compare about 5 good translations. I have never seen an instance where this wasn't good enough to reveal the meaning of the text.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

AMEV AMEV

Able to ask them?

This do sounds like it'll be exciting!

sorry, no. Prof. Blazen was my teacher and Kubo compiled a vocab. list i used. That was years ago! No contact since. It would be great, wouldn't it?

Aww cmon John, let's get into the good stuff on here. Not all fluff.

Dave

I hope to get into "the good stuff," sure, but I also want to make much of it as understandable and as simple as possible for those who are interested. I hope that doesn't mean it has to be "fluff."

What I propose on this thread is simply to make a close examination of the way in which the NT uses all of the words dealing with pastor, elder, bishop, minister, and deacon. It would also be helpful to review what the NT says regarding the qualifications and the responsibilities, or functions, of those occupying these offices.

So far, the following verses are the ones which some members of CA have pointed to as offering the best evidence that there were female elders or pastors in the NT church:

1) 1 Tim. 3: 11-- gunaikas-- referring to wives of deacons or possibly deaconesses; most probably the wives.

2) Romans 16: 1-- diakonos-- servant or deaconess. Even if translated as "minister", it does not necessarily mean "pastor." We need to examine the role and qualifications of the NT deacon, and also examine all the uses of diakonos in the NT.

3) 1 Tim 5: 2-- presbutera (Fem): All 66 translations that I've examined in English have "older women." All Greek-English lexicons and authorities agree with that translation of 1 Tim. 5: 2.

4) Titus 2: 3-- presbutis-- "an aged woman." Translated here as "aged women," "elder women" or "older women."

5) Romans 16: 3-- sunergous-- co-worker or fellow worker. Compare its use at 1 Thess. 3: 2.

Is there anyone who believes that these verses offer evidence that there were women functioning as pastor or elders in the NT church? If so, what is the evidence that these verses may properly be understand in this way?

Regards,
"John 3: 14"

I'm transferring some of the posts from another thread where the discussion was felt by some to be off topic:



In 1 Tim. 5: 2, Paul used the word, presbuteras, the only occurrence of that word in the feminine gender in the NT. If Paul had used it in Titus 2: 3, owing to the context, it would have meant a "female elder." In 1 Tim. 5: 2, however, the context leaves no doubt that it has reference to "older women," which is the reason ALL translations give that reading. Older men and older women are there compared and contrasted with younger men and younger women, and the language is that of family, not that of church officers. As for Titus 2: 3, and the word, presbutis, all Greek-English Lexicons and translations show that it is referring to "older women." There is no doubt as to the meaning of this word. The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament Illustrated From Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources, written by Moulton and Milligan, says, "Presbutis, 'an old woman,'" (p. 335).



Please produce a reputable translation or an authority on the Greek language which says that Titus 2: 3 is referring to an officer of the NT church rather than to "older women." All 66 of my translations of the NT, as well as those I have in Spanish, read, "older women," etc.



At this point, as far as I'm concerned, we're only talking about the meaning of Titus 2: 3 and 1 Tim. 5: 2. I think the best way to proceed is to examine each verse of the NT dealing with pastors, ministers, bishops, elders, and deacons, in order to see exactly what the NT evidence is on this topic.



Please offer your best evidence that there was a female elder in the NT church.



While no modern church is bound by every organizational detail of the NT church, yet Christian churches are certainly bound by God's commands. Also, I believe that the church should follow as closely as possible the NT pattern for governing the church, and part of that pattern is male-leadership. For instance, Christ chose 12 men, not 6 men and 6 women, as His disciples. Paul's argument for male leadership in the church is not based on culture or problems within the local church, as is sometimes argued, but he points us to creation and the law as the reasons that men should be the leaders in the family and in the church. If those are the underlying reasons for Paul's instructions, a good argument can be made that they are universal and not limited to a certain time or condition.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

#149731 - 12/31/07 06:33 AM Re: History of Women Elders and Pastors [Re: John317]
Tom Wetmore
Latitudinarian


Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 826
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA




What we need to do, and what I propose to do on this thread, is examine every single verse in the NT that uses the words that are translated as elder, pastor, minister, deacon, bishop, overseer, etc. We will look most carefully at those verses that you believe offer evidence that there were female elders or pastors in the NT church.

At this point, I would simply ask you to produce any translation that you know of which translates 1 Tim. 5: 2, as anything other than "older women." Also, please include any Greek-Lexicon which says that 1 Tim 5: 2 refers to female church officers.



As anyone knows who knows Koine Greek, both words are used to describe older men or women. See, for instance, Luke 15: 25. All of the Greek-English lexicons agree with this fact. Also, do not forget that every single translation of the NT translates 1 Tim 5: 2 the very same way, as "older women," etc. Do you know of any translation that translates this verse as referring to church officers?

We will look more closely at this question of the correct way to translate these verses as well as others as we continue this dialogue.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

The following are all the NT verses containing the noun, presbuteros, Strongs # 4245, which is usually translated as "elder" or "elders." It is also translated as "older men," etc., such as in Acts 2: 17. The feminine gender of that word is only used once in the NT, at 1 Tim. 5: 2, where it is always translated as "older women." Except for that single exception, the word is in the masculine gender and always refers to males.

1) Matt. 15: 2--- "elders." All references in the gospels and the Acts are in regard to men.

Matt. 16: 21; 21: 23; 26: 3, 47, 57, 59; 27: 1, 3, 12, 20, 41; 28: 12.

2) Mark 7: 3, 5; 8:31; 11: 27; 14: 43, 53; 51: 1.

3) Luke 7: 3;9: 22; 10: 40; 15: 25; 20: 1; 22: 52.

4) John 8: 9-- here it refers to "eldest men."

5) Acts 2: 17-- "old men."

6) Acts 4: 5-- RSV, "elders."

7) Acts 4: 8-- RSV, "elders."

8) Acts 4: 23-- RSV, "elders."

9) Acts 15: 2-- RSV, "elders."

10) Acts 15: 4-- RSV, "elders."

11) Acts 15: 6-- RSV, "elders."

12) Acts 15: 22-- RSV, "elders."

13) Acts 15: 23-- RSV, "elders"

14) Acts 16: 4-- RSV, "elders."

15) Acts 20: 17-- RSV, "elders."

16) Acts 21: 18-- RSV, "elders."

17) Acts 23: 14-- RSV, "elders."

18) Acts 24:1-- RSV, "elders."

19) Acts 25: 15-- RSV, "elders."

20) 1 Timothy 5: 1-- RSV, New American Standard, New Jerusalem Bible, TEV, LB, Phillips, Revised New English Bible, New King James Version, NIV-- "older man;" KJV-- "elder."

21) 1 Tim. 5: 2-- RSV "older women." ALL 66 translations that I own read the same here. All Greek-Lexicons also agree that this is the correct translation at this verse.

22) 1 Tim. 5: 17-- RSV, "elders"

23) 1 Tim. 5: 19-- RSV, "an elder"

24) Titus 1: 5-- RSV, "elders."

25) Hebrews 11: 2-- RSV, "men of old;" KJV, "the elders;" NIV, "the ancients."

26) James 5: 14-- RSV, "elders;" i.e., "elders of the church." This verse assumes that the "elders" are all males.

27) 1 Peter 5: 1-- RSV, "elders."

28) 1 Peter 5: 5-- RSV, "elders."

29) 2 John 1-- RSV, "elder."

30) 3 John 1-- RSV, "elder."

31) Rev. 4: 4-- RSV, "elders."

32) Rev. 4: 10-- RSV, "elders."

33) Rev. 5, 6, 8, 11, 14-- RSV, "elders."

34) Rev. 7: 11, 13-- RSV, "elders."

35) Rev. 11: 16-- RSV, "elders."

36) Rev. 14: 3-- RSV, "elders."

37) Rev. 19: 4-- RSV, "elders."

In heaven all the "elders" are described as males. Rev. 14: 3 and 19: 4 tell of events yet future.

The only occurrence of presbutis, Strongs #4247, is at Titus 2: 3, where it is always translated as, "aged women, " etc. All Greek-English Lexicons agree that this is the correct translation.

Presbuterion, Strong's #4244, occurs in three verses, and each time is translated, "elders," and obviously refers to men: Luke 22: 66; Acts 22: 5; 1 Tim. 4: 4.

Next we will look every occurrence in the NT of the verb, diakoneo, Strongs #1247, which means to be a servant, attendant, domestic; to serve, minister, wait upon. We'll eventually discuss every occurrence of every word and verse of the NT dealing with the various officers of the church as well as any that deals with women's role in the NT church. If anyone thinks of a word or verse or of an argument that is not brought up here, please bring it up and let's talk about it.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Below are all of the NT verses containing the verb, diakoneo, Strong's #1247, meaning to be a servant, attendant, domestic; to serve, minister, wait upon.

Does anyone see any evidence here that there were women pastors and elders in the NT congregations?

1) Matt. 4: 11-- RSV, NASB, angels "ministered"

2) Matt. 8: 15-- RSV, Peter's mother-in-law "served" Jesus; NASB, "wait on."

3) Matt. 20: 28-- RSV, not to be "served but to serve"

4) Matt. 25: 44-- RSV, "minister to you."

5) Matt. 27: 55-- RSV, "ministering."

6) Mark 1: 13-- RSV, "ministered;" NIV "attended."

7) Mark 1: 31-- RSV, "served;" NIV, "to wait on."

8) Mark 10: 45-- RSV, NIV, not to be "served but to serve."

9) Mark 15: 41-- RSV, "ministered;" NIV, "cared for his needs."

10) Luke 4: 39, RSV, to serve; NIV, to wait on.

11) Luke 8: 3-- RSV, "provided for;" NIV, "helping to support."

12) Luke 10: 40-- RSV, "to serve;" NIV, "to do the work."

13) Luke 12: 37-- RSV, NIV, "serve"

14) Luke 17: 8-- RSV, "serve;" NIV, "wait on."

15) Luke 22: 26-- RSV, NIV, "serves."

16) Luke 22: 27-- RSV, NIV, "serves...serves."

17) John 12: 2-- RSV, NIV, Martha "served."

18) John 12: 26-- RSV, NIV, "serves... serves"

19) Acts 6: 2-- RSV, "to serve [tables];" NIV, "to wait on [tables]." Jerusalem Bible, "so as to give out food;" TEV, "to handle finances." (This is in reference to the first deacons in the NT church.)

20) Acts 19: 22-- RSV, NIV, "helpers;" Robert Young Literal, "those ministering." Masculine participle.

21) Romans 15: 25-- RSV, "aid;" NIV, "in the service of" of the saints; RYL, "ministering to."

22) 2 Cor. 3: 3-- RSV, "delivered;" NIV, "ministry;" NRSV, "prepared;" RYL, "Ministered."

23) 2 Cor. 8: 19-- RSV, "carrying on;" NIV, "administer;" NRSV, "administering;" RYL, "ministered."

24) 2 Cor. 8: 20-- RSV, "administering;" NIV, "administer."

25) 1 Tim. 3: 10-- RSV, NIV, "Let them serve [as deacons];" RYL, "let them minister."

26) 2 Tim. 1: 18-- RSV, "service;" NIV, "helped;" RYL, "minister."

27) Philemon 13-- RSV, "serve;" NIV, "helping;" NASB, "minister."

28) Hebrews 6: 10-- RSV, "serving... still do;" NIV, "helped... continuing to help." NASB, "ministered... still ministering."

29) 1 Peter 1: 12-- RSV, NIV, NASB, NRSV, "serving." Literally, "ministering."

30) 1 Peter 4: 10-- RSV, "employ it for;" NRSV,NIV, "serve;" NASB, "employ it in serving."

31) 1 Peter 4: 11-- RSV, "renders service;" NASB, NIV, "serves; "RYL, "minister."

We'll look next at every occurrence of the Greek noun, diakonos, Strong's # 1249, which is the ordinary word for "servant" when it is used in contexts not dealing with church officers. It occurs at Romans 16: 1 and is there translated as "deaconess" (RSV, NRSV), "servant" (KJV, NKJV, NIV, ASV, NASB), "minister" (Darby, New American Bible), and "ministrant" (Robert Young's Literal).

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

The following are all of the NT verses in which the noun diakonos occurs, #Strong's #1249, the ordinary word for "servant" when not used in the context of church officers.

At Romans 16: 1, it is most often translated as either "deaconess" or "servant." The New American Bible (Catholic), usually a very dependable translation, reads, "minister." Robert Young's Literal here reads, "ministrant."

1) Matthew 20: 26-- RSV, NIV, "servant."

2) Matthew 22: 13-- RSV, NIV, "attendants."

3) Matthew 23: 11-- RSV, NIV, "servant."

4) Mark 9: 35-- RSV, NIV, "servant."

5) John 2: 5-- RSV, NIV, "servants." (Regarding waiters, one who serves food and drink.)

6) John 2: 9-- RSV, NIV, "servants."

7) John 12: 26-- RSV, NIV, "servant."

8) Romans 13: 4-- (of government) RSV, NIV, "servant."

9) Romans 15: 8-- (of Christ) RSV, NIV, "servant."

10) Romans 16: 1-- (of Phoebe) RSV, Amplified, "deaconess;" NIV, NKJV, NASB, "servant;" New American Bible, REB, Darby, "minister."

Both Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon and the Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich conclude that here the word diakonos has reference to deaconess.

11) 1 Cor. 3: 5-- (of Paul and Apollos) RSV, NIV, "servants."

12) 2 Cor. 3: 6-- (of Paul and Timothy) RSV, NIV, "servants."

13) 2 Cor. 6: 4-- (of Paul and Timothy) RSV, NIV, "servants."

14) 2 Cor. 11: 15-- (of Satan's followers) RSV, NIV, "servants."

15) 2 Cor. 11: 23-- (of Jewish Christians) RSV, NIV, "servants."

16) Gal. 2: 17-- (of Christ), RSV, "agent;" NRSV, "servant;" NIV, "one who promotes;" KJV, "minister."

17) Eph. 3: 7-- (of Paul) RSV, "a minister;" NIV, "a servant."

18) Eph. 6: 21-- (Of Tychicus) RSV, "minister;" NIV, "servant;" NEB, "helper."

19) Phil. 1: 1-- (Ones to whom the letter, Philippians, is addressed), RSV, NIV, "deacons;" TEV, "helpers."

20) Col. 1: 7-- (of Epaphras), RSV, NIV, "minister;" NEB, TEV, "worker;" Jerusalem Bible, "deputy."

21) Col. 1: 23-- (of Paul), RSV, "minister;" NIV, "servant."

22) Col. 1: 25-- (of Paul), RSV, "minister;" NIV, "servant."

23) Col. 4: 7-- (of Tychicus), RSV, NIV, ASV, "minister;" NASB, "servant."

24) 1 Thess. 3: 2-- (of Timothy) RSV, "servant;" ASV, "minister;" (if reading is diakonos, based on Majority Text and Sinaiaticus; virtually all Greek manuscripts, including the most ancient, give this reading);

--- NIV, "fellow-worker;" NRSV, "co-worker;" (if reading is sunergon, based on manuscript D, a fifth century manuscript, and on #33, a 9th century manuscript. The Critical Text has sunergon, and therefore NIV, NASB, and NRSV all give that reading.)

25) 1 Tim. 3: 8-- (of men chosen to be deacons) RSV, NIV, "deacons;" TEV, "church-helpers."

26) 1 Tim. 3: 12-- RSV, NASB, "deacons;" NIV, "a deacon;" the Greek is plural.

26) 1 Tim. 4: 6-- RSV, "minister;" NIV, NRSV, "servant."

Next we'll look at 10 other words in the NT that are sometimes translated as "minister." We will see that none of them have reference to women as pastors of the church.

After that, we'll look at all the words translated as "bishop," or "overseer," "pastor," "leader," "governor," etc. It will be seen that none of these, either, have reference to women as bishops, overseers, elders or pastors in the church.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

There are many different kinds of ministers. The word, diakonos, is the ordinary Greek word for servant. By comparing its use in the NT, you can see that it refers to all kinds of ministry and service, from serving drinks to serving tables or distributing food, etc., to the poor. When it is used in the context of church officers, it is usually translated, "deacon" or "minister." The only time it is used in reference to a woman is in Romans 16: 1, and here it is most often translated servant or deacon or deaconess.

The proof that Phoebe was not a minister in the sense of being the pastor of a church is shown by the fact that Paul says in 1 Tim. 2: 12 he "permits NO woman to teach or have authority over a man." Now, Paul could not make that statement if Phoebe was an elder or pastor of a local church, with authority over the men in the church. The truth is that Bible scholars are agreed that we can't know exactly what kind of "servant" or "minister" Phoebe was in the local church, but one thing we can know for sure is that she was not the elder or pastor of the church in Corinth, because Paul wrote to the Corinthian believers, "As in all the churches of the saints, let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says" (1 Cor. 14: 33b-34; ASV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, New Jerusalem Bible, Beck, Amplified.)

It should be noted that the apostle wrote this from a church where Priscilla-- a woman who, along with her husband, taught Apollos the Scriptures-- was an active member (see 16: 19). Priscilla was an intelligent, educated woman, yet Paul included her among the women whom he would not permit to exercise authority over a man. Can you imagine Paul writing this to a church at the same time that a woman, Phoebe, was the pastor of a local church? I can't.





Except for the simple fact that, for some reason, you never come across any Biblical instructions that a church officer is to be "a one-man woman."

Also, one really should consider the fact that in all the references to elders, bishops, overseers, and pastors, there are clear indications that a man is meant, not a woman. Would you be anxious to argue that this is merely coincidental?

In the context of 1 Tim. 3: 2, the word gune means wife and the word aner means husband. These are the same words that are used in Eph. 5: 23-24 where it says that "the husband is the head of the wife," "as the church is subject to Christ and as the wives are to be subject to their own husbands in everything."

Please notice that Eph 5: 32 significantly compares the husband's relationship to the wife with Christ's relationship to the Father and to the church. It's a point that we need to dwell much more on as we discuss this subject. Would it ever be appropriate for the church to try to take over the leadership role that belongs to Christ? How about if Christ were to try to take over the leadership role of the Father? If those things would never be right, would it be right for the wife to try to usurp the leadership role of the husband? If the woman takes over this leadership role of the man in the church, would not the same thing happen in the family and in the home? What would be the effect of this on the family, society and the church?

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Below are 8 Greek words that are sometimes translated as "minister" in the NT. Interestingly, the Greek noun, hyperetes, Strong's #5257, is used by the KJV and RSV at Luke 1: 2 with reference to men and women "ministers," (NASB, NIV, "servants"). None of these refer to women as pastors, elders, or ministers of local churches.

1) Leitourgos-- Strong's # 3011-- a masculine noun. Gives no references to women as ministers or pastors.

a) Of government officials, Romans 13: 6: "ministers" (NKJV).

b) Of Paul, Romans 15: 16: "a minister of Jesus Christ"

c) Of Epaphroditus, Phil. 2: 25: "minister to my need" (RSV); "one who ministered to my need" (NKJV).

d) Of the angels, Hebrews 1: 7: "ministers" (NKJV).

e) Of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 8: 2: "a Minister of the [heavenly] Sanctuary" (NKJV).

2) Didomi-- Strong's #1325-- a verb, usually meaning to give.

a) Of communication of our mouth, Eph. 4: 29: "minister" (KJV); "impart" (NKJV; RSV).

3) Epichoreegeo-- Strong's #2023-- a verb. (No references to Women "ministers".)

a) Of God, 2 Cor. 9: 10-- Masculine Participle-- "he that ministereth" (KJV); "He who supplies" (NKJV).

b) Of God, Gal. 3: 5-- Masculine Participle-- "He that ministereth" (KJV); "He who supplies" (NKJV).

c) Of the Head, Col. 2: 19-- "ministered" (KJV).

d) Of the believer, 2 Peter 1: 5-- "add to your faith" (KJV)

e) 2 Peter 1: 11-- "an entrance shall be ministered unto you" (KJV).

4) Hieroupgeo , Strong's #2418, usually means priesthood. 4 occurrences. Gives no references to women as "ministers."

a) Of Paul, Romans 15: 16-- "ministering the gospel of God" (KJV; NKJV).

5) Parecho-- Strong's # 3930-- verb: usually means "to offer," "give," "brought," "kept."

a) Of fables and genealogies, 1 Tim. 1: 4, "minister questions" (KJV), "cause disputes" (NKJV); "promote" (CSB).

6) Hypereteo-- Strong's #5256-- verb, "to serve," "to minister," "to provide for."

a) Of David, Acts 13: 36, "served" (KJV; NKJ).

b) Of Paul's hands, Acts 20: 34, "ministered" (KJV); "provided" (NKJV).

c) Of Paul's acquaintances, Acts 24: 23, "minister" (KJV); "to provide for" (NKJV).

7) Hyperetes-- Strong's #5257-- noun: servants, officers, ministers, attendants.

a) Of eye-witnesses of the Lord, including apostles, disciples, women followers, Luke 1: 2, "ministers of the word," (KJV; NKJV; RSV; ); "servants of the word" (NASB; NIV).

b) Of the Jewish attendant in the synagogue, Luke 4: 20, "minister," (KJV); "attendant" (NKJV).

c) Of John, Acts 13: 5, "minister" (KJV); "assistant" (NKJV); "to assist" (RSV); "helper" (NIV).

d) Of Paul, Acts 26: 16, "to make thee a minister" (KJV); "to appoint you to serve" (RSV); "to appoint you as a servant" (NIV).

e) Of Paul and Apollos, 1 Cor. 4: 1, "ministers" (KJV); "servants" (NKJV; NIV; RSV; NASB).

8) Epichoreegeo-- Strong's #5523-- to supply further, to superadd, to supply

a) Of God, 2 Cor. 9: 10, "minister bread," (KJV).

b) Of ability that God gives his ministers or servants [diakoneo with masculine indefinite pronoun, hence: "if any man minister" KJV], 1 Peter 4: 11, "the ability which God giveth" (KJV); "supplies" (NKJV).

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

So far, I've posted all the verses that deal with deacons, ministers, elders. Of these, the only ones that refer to women are Luke 1: 2; Romans 16: 1, 3; 1 Tim 3: 11; 5: 2; and Titus 2: 3.

Now, below, please find all the verses that refer to bishops, overseers and pastors. On a separate post, I will give the remainder of the words-- about 10-- dealing with church officers.

1) Poimeen-- Strong's #4166: Pastor, shepherd, superintendent, guardian.

a) Verses where it means "shepherd" and is so translated: Matt. 9: 36; 25: 32; 26: 31; Mark 6: 34; 14: 27; Luke 2: 8, 15, 18, 20; John 10: 2, 11, 12, 14, 16; Hebrews 13: 20; 1 Peter 2: 25.

b) Of the spiritual gifts in the church, Eph. 4: 11-- "pastors" (noun plural masculine). The fact that both "pastors and teachers" have only one definite article shows these two spiritual gifts are given to the same individual.

2) Episkopos-- Strong's #1985-- bishop, overseer. All are masculine gender and refer to men.

a) Acts 20: 28-- "overseers" (RSV; NIV).

b) Phil. 1: 1-- "bishops" (RSV); "overseers" (NIV).

c) 1 Tim. 3: 2-- "bishop" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV).

d) Of overseers', or bishops', qualifications, Titus 1: 7-- "bishop" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV).

e) Of Christ, 1 Peter 2: 25-- "guardian" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV; NKJV).

3) Episkopee-- Strong's #1984-- fem. noun (for definition, see below).

a) Luke 19: 44-- "visitation" (RSV; NRSV; NKJV); "of God's coming" (NIV)

b) Acts 1: 20-- "office" (RSV; NASB); "place of leadership" (NIV). NASB, margin: "office of overseer."

c) 1 Tim. 3: 1-- "office of bishop" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV).

d) 1 Peter 2: 12-- "visitation" (RSV; NKJV); "comes to judge" (NRSV); "visits" (NIV).

Next will come about 10 more NT words related to church leadership and officers.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Peers? Oh my! What of one who is a peer unto himself ;-) ?

I’m dissuaded from becoming invested in this issue as – I’m of a mind that those who advise against and actually proscribe women from serving the Lord in which/whatever capacity – are more chauvinistic than Biblical.

I note that the books Timothy and Titus are much depended-upon as valid(?) sources upon which to plant the anti-distaff banner. Would it tend to signify if it is reminded that

those letters are simply Pastorals.

All this recourse to Greek compels me to ask – what of Junia the Apostle? or, disregarding that, what of the fact that the first Evangelists to proclaim (correct me should I err) of Jesus Christ – both before the crucifixion and after – were women; that is, the Samaritan woman at the well in Jesus Christ’s first year of ministry – and St Mary after the Resurrection.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

St Paul seems to have set forth in Ephesians a hierarchical order – beginning with Apostles and devolving from that... Disregarding the minority view obtaining per Junia

it seems it is posited that women performed in the roles Apostle, prophet, evangelist, teachers, etc – with the exception being that it was/is unacceptable they perform(ed) as “pastors”?

(might not the conjunction in "pastors and teachers" actually function conjugally?

Okay, perhaps, more immediately, precedent ought obtain and women might be ordained ministers as was the most noteworthy of the .Org.

(1 Corinthians 11 and 14 are seen as yet another of St Paul’s peculiar ‘post and pillar’ peculiararities... that require diligent cogitation)

Certainly right there jasd and it should be obvious to all that those who apply some of Paul's anti-female thinking to our time shoud be willing to follow all of his advice wouldn't you think?

No one is saying women can't serve the Lord in various ministries or in many different ways. What we're trying to find out, and what we're discussing, is what the Bible teaches about the organization of the church and about its officers.

Some people believe that Paul was "chauvinistic." Do you share that point of view?

Of course there are some, too, who claim Paul was homophobic and that anyone who believes that homosexuality is sinful is also homophobic.

I think it's wrong to label people with those words simply because they believe what the Bible is saying on those issues.

I've already made up my mind that homosexuality is sinful, but I am not at all homophobic. I haven't made up my mind about what the Bible teaches as regards women in ministry but am studying the issues and the evidence. So far, I don't see evidence the Bible says women ought to be made bishops or overseers or ordained pastors of the church. But I would be willing and happy to accept them as ordained pastors of local churches if I could find evidence that the Bible shows a time would come when this would be God's will. This is what I am looking for. But my view on it must come from the Bible and not from society or from current church practice or tradition.



Are you implying that the Pastoral Epistles, which Paul wrote in order to give instructions about the officers of the church, are irrelevant? Or that there are other books in the Bible that have greater authority and that contradict the instructions in the Pastoral Epistles?



In Romans 16: 7, the Greek word Jounian is accusative, singular, masculine.

Epiphanius (A.D. 315- 403), the bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, wrote an Index of Disciples, in which he includes this line: "Jounias, of whom Paul makes mention, became bishop of Apameia of Syria." (Index disciplulorum, 125.19-20). In Greek, the phrase "of whom" is a masculine relative pronoun (hou) and shows that Epiphanius thought Jounias was a man.

Origen (died 552 A.D) also evidently thought Jounias was a man since he translated it in his commentary on Romans by a Latin masculine, singlular, nominative noun: "et Junias."

The truth is that no one can be absolutely certain whether Romans 16: 7 is referring to a female or male. It could be feminine or it could be masculine. It was certainly not a common female name in the Greek world, since there are only three known occurrences of it as a female name in all of ancient Greek literature. The weight of both grammatical and historical evidence appears to be against its being a female name.

Was Junias an apostle? Possibly so, but this is not certain. Grammatically, the phrase, "of note among the apostles" could mean that the apostles held Andronicus and Junias in high regard. Thus they would not be themselves apostles.

We could go further into the meaning and significance of Romans 16: 7 if you like.



I agree with these facts, but how do they signify that the Bible teaches women are to be elders and overseers in the church? Certainly women have important roles in the spreading of the gospel. I think it's possible your argument here shows that you misunderstand the views of those who oppose women's ordination. They don't argue that women can't be evangelists or work in many types of ministries. The question is whether the Bible teaches that women are to be officers in the church, not whether women can preach or teach. Remember that Priscilla taught Apollos and that in the NT church, women did pray and prophesy. So no one is arguing that under all circumstances, women should not preach or teach, etc.



God is free, of course, to choose women as prophetess. The church doesn't choose prophets.

None of the 13 apostles were female. Neither were any of the NT elders or bishops or pastors. That is, none of the NT churches had women as their leaders or rulers.

Women in the NT did give their personal testimonies about Jesus and they also served as prophets, teachers, and as deaconesses. They served under the leaders and rulers of the churches.



The words in Greek are best translated, "pastor-teacher," or to signify someone who had the gift of both pastoring and teaching.



Ellen White never served as an ordained minister in the sense in which that word is understood today, that is, as the leader of a local church. "Minister" can also mean "servant," and Ellen White often referred to herself as the servant of the Lord. As a prophet, or as someone whose work encompassed more than the work of a prophet, Ellen White was selected and ordained by God and not by men or by the church. Her responsibilities as a prophetess or, as she preferred to be called, as a "messenger of the Lord," didn't depend on the recognition of the church.

Please check out Parts 1, 2, and 3 of the essays written by Samuel Koranteng-Pipim: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/wo/pip-evol.html

I posted these three essays on the thread, "Women In Ministry," and would be very interested in your responses to any of the evidence he discusses. He speaks directly to all of the points you've brought up here.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

I am sure John317 that you are able to speak to your personal opposition to ordination of women ... we have seen much of that.

However ... I fear you are not able to speak to the view of others who oppose this. In fact ... you don't have to look far to see that some here oppose women speaking in church at all. I could probably dig up the quotes unless they have been deleted.

I have personally seen many who oppose WO who very much oppose having a woman speak in church. This is first hand and on this forum. So, unless you know of a designated spokesperson or more likely a spokesMAN ... who can speak towards the accepted belief of gender discrimination .... I would say that it is possible that YOU may not fully understand the opposition other than your own.

Do you believe that the Epistles of Paul give us the Word of God or Paul's culturally-conditioned, personal opinions?

Please notice what Paul says in l Cor. 14: 37, 38. What do you think of this?

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

You might look at Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, edited by John Piper and Wayne Grudem, Crossway Books, 2006. It's a book of essays written by 26 different scholars on the subject. None of them make the case that women ought not to be able to speak at all in church.

But the real issue here is what the the Greek NT says about the officers in the church, specifically whether there were any women serving in the NT church as elders, pastors, overseers or bishops, etc.

The world-wide church in GC does not oppose women being able to speak or preach in the church. I am certainly not opposed to that, and I don't believe Paul's statement can be rightly understood to mean that. I know for sure that Samuel Koranteng-Pipim: http://www.greatcontroversy.org/wo/pip-evol.html/ does not mean that, either. And neither does Doug Batchelor or the well-known pastor of the church in Fresno.

Do you know of any leaders in the church or any books published by SDAs that oppose women speaking at church under all conditions and in all situations?

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I was asking who was YOUR authority since you seemed to be speaking for all those opposed to WO.

I could list all kinds of people who believe that women should not speak in church ... but I personally do not believe that annocdotal references make a good preference for speaking in regard to ALL those who oppose WO.

I had asked you for a reference as to who speaks for ALL those who oppose WO. You seemed to be speaking with some authority.

This has been a problem when I read your posts. You seem to make statements and suggestions but without references. In fact I find many of your bold statements to be totally wrong.

You have stated that NO vote was ever made to ordain women elders. I have repeatedly provided that reference for you and then you repeat the accusation.

Here are a few more unfounded statements ...



Please provide references for the above claim. The Annual Council has voted and approved the above in 1975 and the GC has repeatedly enforced this by not voting to oppose it in any way. If the "vast majority" opposed it then why did they not vote and address the issue. By their "inaction" they have approved it.



Please provide a reference for the above outrageous claim.



Again ... please provide a reference for this outrageous claim.



Can you explain with references .. how pastors are not appointed by God. That one just blows my mind.



No such vote has been taken that I am aware of .. please provide references for such a vote.



You seem to make this bold claim repeatedly. But please provide the reference.


The above claim would be countered by multiple documents that have been presented here. OR are you calling her a liar for signing these documents?



This is simply untrue. The list of credentialed ordained women ministers during Ellen White's time has been posted. Do you have any references to counter this list?


This insinuation has been shown to be untrue ... but you continue to repeat it without references.



If women pastors and elders contradict the Bible ... this is entirely YOUR opinion. And that is fine. But I would rather that you refrain from stating that the "church" goes along with your "opinion". I am not aware of ANY vote that would indicate that women pastors and elders is contrary to scripture. Yet, this promotion remains in your posts. Please provide references for your statements about the church.

I feel that with the force of your unfounded statements ... you are misleading a great number of people. I hope you can correct this problem.

As you study the literature on the subject, you find that the issue is not whether women cannot speak in church at all, but whether women should be pastors and elders or overseers, etc. In other words, it has to do with the question of whether women should be church officers with certain kinds of doctrinal and governing authority.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

I've said that no such vote to ordain women as elders and pastors was made by the world church in General Conference session.





I accept the vote by the GC in opposition to women being made pastors and elders as evidence that the GC in session opposes that action.



I don't believe that we can assume that the GC in session approves the vote by the Annual Council just because it does not vote to oppose it. The simple fact that the GC did not vote in favor of women being ordained elders and pastors of local churches shows me that it does not approve of their being made elders and pastors.





When did the GC in session vote in favor of making women pastors on a conference by conference basis?

Do you know what the vote ratio was?

Here's a 1995 statement by Fritz Guy:

The vote in Utrecht against allowing equality for Adventist women in ministry was a grievous error. It constitutes a blot on the history and character of Adventism, and it must be rectified as early, as clearly, and as widely as possible. A proper response to this vote must address its meaning; to try merely to circumvent it verbally and procedurally is to ignore the stark reality that it was morally wrong. What we need to be doing now is not finding ways to affirm women without ordaining them, but finding ways to ordain them without resulting in too much turmoil.

Some practices and structures (such as the distribution of tithe funds, the organization of conferences, and the use of various communication media) are matters of church policy, and they can be settled by a majority vote according to practical and cultural considerations. In such cases we accept decisions even if we disagree with them. But the full equality of women and men in ministry is a matter of moral, spiritual, and theological integrity, in which we must be guided by the teaching of the whole Word of God and the spirit of the gospel of Christ. While we have great respect for a vote of a General Conference session because it is the broadest representation of the community of faith that is our spiritual home, we must live in accordance with the Word and the gospel.

We are painfully aware that in response to the vote in Utrecht, any action in opposition, or even any statement of dissent, may be misinterpreted as disloyalty to the church as a whole. This causes us great personal and spiritual sorrow; but we must live with integrity, motivated by an even higher loyalty to the principles of truth and love on which the church itself is founded. Opposing an action of the General Conference on moral grounds is a far more authentic expression of loyalty to and love for the church than is passive or grumbling compliance. For it is from the church that we have learned to "call sin by its right name" and to "stand for the right though the heavens fall." In obedience to conscience we cannot, by a failure to speak or act, participate in the continuing discrimination against Adventist women in ministry.

Since the General Conference session failed to recognize the moral imperative of ordaining women in ministry, the responsibility for doing so now rests on others, beginning with the largest and most comprehensive organizational structures. The mission of the church will be best served if this responsibility is accepted by the North American Division. If the division fails to accept the responsibility, it will pass to the union and local conferences. If these organizations fail to accept it, the responsibility for ordaining women will pass to the congregations served by women ministers.









Study the NT.

Where is the Bible record that prophets were ever selected by a human being?
Church officers, on the other hand, are ordained and selected by the church and by human beings. This does not mean pastors and others working in the church are not guided or "called" to their ministry, but it is not the same as being commissioned by God directly as prophets are.

The issue on this thread is what evidence the NT offers for women being made church officers.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

It is clear that what you have said here in this response ... does not in anyway match the statements that I quoted you as saying.

So, All I can ask is that you please don't repeat them again since you have no basis for them.

Just tagging on here . . . Thought this started out as NT Greek issues. (In fact, I think I started the thread.) These other questions may have their place, but it seems like they pertain to the 'women in ministry' thread?

Dave

You're exactly right.

Later today I'll be posting additional Greek vocabulary on the topic of church officers, along with brief analysis of how these words, as well as the verses in which they occur, contribute to the discussion of women's role in the church.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

John317, do the Ante-Nicene Fathers shed any light on the application of such words as presbuteros and diakonos in the early Church? That is, do they indicate whether or not the the church offices described by those words are gender-neutral or not?

Dave

Well ... let me see .... How many weeks and how much pressure did it take for me to get the Greek business moved here? Do you think that you guys practice what you preach? Just checkin?

And with that snippet ... I will leave you to your bidding. It is obvious no matter what thread I go to ... he will not answer the questions. Greek or No Greek ... No answer.

I haven't done a concentrated study of those particular words as they are used among the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

The Western church from the first century through the fourth century didn't have any women serving as presbuteros (elders) or as bishops. Eastern Christianity (Syria, Chaldea, Persia) , however, especially, required the creation of a distinct female diaconal ministry in order to evangelize and care for women. The Didaskalia, for instance, says, "There are houses to which you [the bishop] cannot send a [male] deacon to the women, on account of the heathen, but you may send a deaconess."

The first duty of the deaconess was to assist the bishop in the baptism of women by anointing their bodies a