Vive la mystery! I can buy all of that! How any Divine source manifests is not up to us decide or understand.




Agreed. Jesus was a man just exactly like us. That doesn't diminish the truth embodied in the 'gospel story' or myth. Else why would such a man as Joseph Campbell devote a life to the study of such things.

'Follow your bliss.' And many people first find their bliss in the realms of Christianity. It becomes harder (if not impossible) to maintain their bliss when they become subject to the authoritarianism and totalitarianism in 'the church.' That's why we need a new post-christian spirituality, one that needn't throw Christ out, but perhaps it could be called Neo-Christianity. This would liberate Christians in the same manner that Jesus endeavored to liberate his followers from the religious authorities of his day.

What would you do with a planet like ours if you were God?

I think the question that is more meaningful to me is...

What are we doing with a planet like ours?

After reading your posts and understanding what I believe you are saying, I can agree with this coming from you. What I am very careful with is saying that the Bible contains THE truth, because what that means to different people is quite broad.

Joseph Campbell was very helpful for me and in many ways his work gave practical application to much of the great psychologist Carl Jung's work on archetypes in dreams.



It is an interesting approach. I think we are seeing this occur naturally among many diverse groups who embrace the philosophical Jesus. There is great interest in what is called Essene practices and a modern Gnostic Christianity.

While these are all movements to shift the basic assumptions about God and our role in the world, I find that there is often a lack of active transformational experience. That is, there is a lot of talking about the process, but few opportunities to do the process.

To serve??? maintance on the universe??? NAAAAHH! Whatcho talkin' bout, son? Servatude???

This God is lonely...He wants friends, and friendships and relationships and wants to share things that He has made and see people's reactions to that...He wants to see what you do with what you learn/make/share with others....Apparently, it 'tickles Him pink' to see such things...That is why he made mankind with the power to choose, to act independantly of God...God may not like all the surprizes that are currently in vogue, but He does like surprizes...And while you might think that He has forknowledge, that doesn't mean that uses that ability constantly. Therefore, it is possible to surprise God.



It is a law, by beholding we become changed...Lucifer beheld the beauty of God and all the complexity of God Himself was beautiful. With all of Lucifer's knowledge of the beauty of the universe and the Creator who made it, his appreciation fueled his desire to be as beautiful. I am surprise that you grew up Adventist, and did not know this....

Regarding guilt:

I see this everyday with Adventists...I have no desire to live my life in guilt either...That is why there is God who desires relationship/friendships and takes care of the sin problem without my dealing with it. Sure, I recognise the results of sin, and my shortcomings...but that doesnt' affect my friendship with God, because He knows that I am more interested in Him than in guilt/court of law/ and all that stuff. As one person has said in another thread, 'Jesus has paid that price for all humanity'...now, let's get on with the party and real living....And that is what I am doing...



Nothing to be saved from...? What about death? Or is that just a part of life in your cosmic view? 'Cuz it's a pretty sucky joke to be alive and then die, if that is your paradigm....

Regarding the Salem Witch Trials:

You don't factor in the insidiousness of evil, and how it affects us...You haven't allowed for that, but instead, dismissed it. You have allowed Satan to influence your picture of God and substituted his picture, and then named it 'God of the bible'. When we try to show you other pictures of Him, you dismiss them..
But you, O God, are both tender and kind,
not easily angered, immense in love,
and you never, never quit.
Ps 86

God makes everything come out right;
he puts victims back on their feet.
He showed Moses how he went about his work,
opened up his plans to all Israel.
God is sheer mercy and grace;
not easily angered, he's rich in love.
He doesn't endlessly nag and scold,
nor hold grudges forever.
He doesn't treat us as our sins deserve,
nor pay us back in full for our wrongs.
As high as heaven is over the earth,
so strong is his love to those who fear him.
And as far as sunrise is from sunset,
he has separated us from our sins.
As parents feel for their children,
God feels for those who fear him.
He knows us inside and out,
keeps in mind that we're made of mud.
Men and women don't live very long;
like wildflowers they spring up and blossom,
But a storm snuffs them out just as quickly,
leaving nothing to show they were here.
God's love, though, is ever and always,
eternally present to all who fear him,
Making everything right for them and their children
as they follow his Covenant ways
and remember to do whatever he said.Ps 103:6-18

But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.A famous text that I am sure you can find in the New Testament.

Even though Lucifer has masked a lot, the specialness of the God of the Bible still comes thru, outshining and poorly described in ancient language, with the limitations of men.



If one were willing to learn, and see the wisdom of the God of the Universe, then yes, it would be wise to follow Him. But if that Person is masked by the deciever, shielded from seeing, then the recipient can not follow and will not follow, thinking that it is foolishness. You see, to follow the commands/wisdom of God, would of necessity, bring judgement to the individual. Therefore, a command,from the wisest Person of the Universe, would seem extreeme to one who did not see the wisdom.



Things that don't make sense to me either, I simply set aside for a later discussion. And when the Catholic priests who point out that some situation was God's mysterious will, I too rebelled against something that I thought I hated...I then thought that if this God of the Universe truely cared for mankind, He must have had some interactions with us...and it would have had to be recorded somewhere...And if it was in the bible, how would the forefathers have pictured Him, in thier language?



Indeed!...That is why I have looked and been persuaded that the God of the bible, is the God of the universe described therein...and the amazing thing that just floors me, is that He is interested in me.

This and the rest of your post are highly speculative. That's the problem with making claims about what God wants or is about. I don't know about the idea of a co-dependent god. There are so many problems with this view.

I look at it this way. One is certainly free to make God into whatever image they want to. This can provide a sense of meaning and comfort through a creation of a personal myth. We all do this. Everyone has to do this around the nature of God.

The problem comes when people say this is factual and come to believe that their particular myth is the only way. I'm not saying that you are doing that. This view of God is certainly unsustainable by a literal reading of the Bible. You might be able to tease it out with an inspirational re-interpretation as you have done here.



Well, its one thing to want to be more beautiful and talented. Its not logical to gain this beauty through the overthrow of God. This would be an incredibly stupid and immature approach to achieving the goal of beauty. Most people, even immature ones, begin to emulate those they admire, not destroy or hate them. I don't find this idea likely at all.



You can quote me all the beautiful poetry about God you want. Its God's actions that ultimately determine what that god is like. And God's actions, particularly those directly attributed to Him in the Old Testament are horrendous.

And yes, there are some visions of a beautiful loving God in the Bible if you are willing to overlook some of the horrendous morals and ethics of other descriptions of God.

So take from the Bible that which is beautiful and scrap the rest as ancient superstition.



You are certainly free to envision your spiritual path like this, but, for me, this does not ring true. And there are certainly passages that offer wisdom and positive ways to view the world. And I continue to follow many of them, but the Bible as a whole does not hold my respect because there are simply such brutal and immature visions of an angry, jealous, and vengeful god.

In my studies I have discovered the historical story behind the bible. It is a collection of wisdom writings, stories, myths, and dogma that were created by men for specific political and ideological purposes in various stages of human development and human history. This information is readily available and makes far more sense to me.

I agree with you that this is an important question. However, in terms of discussing what the Bible says about God, the question of what you would do with this messed up world also has relevance. We can speculate about how the world got messed up, but the bottom line is that the world is full of suffering, evil, and death-- so, if you were God, what would you do to solve these problems?

My closest friend of 35 years seems to think a lot like you about these things, although we rarely talk about religion. He's an agnostic, but you know a lot more about the Bible. He knows nothing about Ellen White, and has no interest whatever in organized religion. He and I share many other interests, such as photography, art, history, and travel.

If you enjoy looking at excellent, interesting photography check out his site: http://homepage.mac.com/ronaldrobertgrantham/PhotoAlbum1.html

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Well, evidently God hasn't solved the problem either, because we still have those problems. To me, killing everyone who doesn't agree with me isn't a very creative solution either. Plus it ignores the complexity of the problem and its sources outside of a simplistic view of evil.

To me, the best demonstration of solutions exists when the most freedom is available and power is not concentrated in one place. This allows those solutions that normally wouldn't be available to be heard.

The problem is Christians talk like the problem has been solved. Christianity may have some individual solutions to behavior and happiness, but when Christianity or any religion, have been in charge the results have been a disaster. Secular approaches to government may not be perfect, but they are certainly preferable to a Theocracy.

So, where is all this evidence that you were going to come up with?

I've looked and I can't find it in the Bible. This minor point is certainly conjecture, but the woppers are still left unanswered. And the question you ask here has been left unanswered.