I can accept that people don't believe in the inerrancy of all scripture. But to call Moses a witch!? So, why is Moses in heaven now? Moses visited with Jesus at the transfiguration - in the NEW Testament. Is that a serious post? I can't even wrap my head around that one.

Part of the experience of being exposed to different belief systems. It can be quite interesting. In a given day, I may listen empathetically to everyone from an agnostic to an evangelical to an atheist to, in today's case, someone who buys into the 'Ouraneia' stuff. And much more. I have learned to listen with interest, and try to understand where a person is coming from. Although I must confess, this is the first time I have heard it suggested that Moses was a witch. I should like to hold some discourse with my esteemed online friend, D'Allan, in that regard.

Dave

The real question is do we have a reason to believe?

It is a well done site and the questions are certainly worth asking. Discussions on forgiveness, love, peace, and rest are very positive solutions for many of life's pains and can generate very practical solutions.

I think the weakness of the site is the God answer is implied through the fear of death, the fear of no meaning in life, and the idea that only God has the solution to fairness and justice because they are complex.

I think Christians could enter into the larger philosophical dialog if they would come with the idea that the search for truth was the first priority. So often the dialog has behind it the intent to convert all others to a truth that is already assumed. This is quite evident on this site.

We are in a unique situation in the country. Other traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism have become blended with Western sensitivities and have produced new forms of these traditions that have discovered deep insights into life and its meaning unique to these blends. One good example of this is the book called "The Zen Teachings of Jesus" by Christian writer Kenneth Leong. It becomes quite evident that the philosophy of Jesus has deep roots in Eastern philosophy that elude our western assumptions.

I want to make it clear that I am not a Buddhist or a Christian, but I can understand the gifts that each of these traditions have brought to the table. I have learned to enter into the assumptions of different traditions to understand what draws people to these different ways of believing.

What I have learned is that our gods will always be too small. Some people spend their whole life with one version of god and yet, when one begins to explore beyond the boundaries of god, there are some very frightening places. I can understand why looking at life without a god in the universe would seem frightening, if you had nothing to replace that with.

And often those who leave Christianity, after being awakened to the fact that its claims are based in pagan myths and ancient political powers, will lapse into despair and embrace a pragmatic, often angry atheism. This is not unlike the child who is told that Santa Claus is not real and realize all their joy and excitement around him have been based on a lie. This can leave a child with a profound sense of betrayal and distrust of other people.

It is true that one needs to search for meaning as one would search for the pearl of great price. When presented with the option of despair or continuing to search, I believe that continuing the search is a far more interesting option. And it helps if one has a mentor, that has walked through this, that can provide some direction.

What I have discovered is that something is only true for me if it produces results. This is often a long process and I imagine that I will be going through this process the rest of my life. Rather than producing a sense of disappointment, I have come to enjoy the prospect of exploring deeper and deeper mysteries.

I have also discovered that truth often lays in the midst of a paradox and that real answers aren't contained in words, but exist deep within each one of us. This may be what Jesus was referring to when he spoke so much about the Kingdom of God within.

I have learned through a lot of experience that there are vast capabilities deep within each one of us that are often blocked by fears and shame. And unfortunately modern Christianity has a lot of teachings that prevent people from exploring these places. And modern Christianity does not have many mystical practices that allow people to connect with these parts of themselves that will often ignite transformational experiences. And when it does there is a lot of judgmental beliefs that prevent a fuller connection with this inner awareness.

And often when people have an authentic transformational experience within Christianity, they are the first to be pushed out because it is contagious and frightening at the same time.

I hope that by now I have communicated that I love Christian people and that I honor all of you by telling you what I honestly believe. I hope that I have also communicated that I don't consider what I have to say to be the complete truth or any specific absolute truth. It only happens to be what I have discovered to be true for me. For me, its up to you to decide what is true for you. These problems are simply too complex and too old to have me arrogantly claim that I have it all nailed down.

And yet, I think I can speak to at least what I have observed to not work in specific ways, without generalizing it to all Christians.

Dear CardW i do believe you are speaking from the heart, but actually you are talking like a Jesuit. Forget about philosophy and look at it this way. There are two truths, the one is the bible and the bible alone, the other truth doesn t teach the whole bible and is a universal believe that somehow all the religions are equal and complementary. The bible is the word of God, all the other religions are inventions of the devil because satan was allowed by God to deceive the peoples of the world. Jesus said that the way to eternal destruction in hell is broad and wide and popular while the door of truth is very small and unpopular. This has always been the case since Jesus went to do his work in heaven. IF you want to know the truth you have to abandon your worldy vision of God or religion in general. Don t trust in human philosophies that make you drift away further and further from the truth. It is sad that the world equals Christianity with Roman Catholicism and does not understand that it is a cruel system in the eyes of God and many believers. Think about it, the pope claims his authority as a succesor of Peter whereas Peter himself said that Jesus the chief cornerstone was and he was just a little rock. The ridiculous eucharist is totally unbiblical and is meant to 'celebrate' Jesus crucifiction 24 7 all around the world. The papacy killed everybody who did not want to conform to their worldly view of Christianity. I hope you are open to investigate this point of view. Look for example the following link, it will give you an idea of how clever and subtile the devil is in deception: http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-...earch&plindex=6

I'll second that. My brain is too logical to accept something that doesn't make sense. I can understand differences of opinion or interpretation, but this one needs some 'splainin.

Forgive my amusement at your astonishment. Please do. I quite understand it. It is quite a statement to post on a fundamentalist, evangelical religious forum. My motivation was in sympathy for our friend who began this thread who seemed to me to be fearing that God might be angry with them for their thoughts about the mosaic rule which required those breaking the 'Sabbath'(it that the one?) to be killed by stoning. It is pathetic that a person has to fear for his soul if he begins to think about such a law being unjust, and worse than merely unjust. I feel sorry for anyone put in this position by religion - I suffered from it myself profoundly. So you see, my scandalous statement that Moses could have been a witch illustrates the freedom of thought that God has given me. And I am able to think such without fear of being spiritually squashed under His Thumb. Ah, freedom, thank you Jesus! (the truth will set you free)

Not to mention that Moses played magic with the pharoah's magicians. And it was not good magic. But evil pentilential, murderous magic. [Well, thats all fer now. I think I hear *snorts* and throat-clearing with groans and moans in the ether]

I am speaking nothing like a Jesuit. They claim to have a specific belief in Jesus and God. You seem to want to fit me into one of your conspiracy theories.



Your argument starts out with a request to ignore evidence. There are far more versions of truth than what you list here.



And how would allowing Satan deceive everyone further the exploration of truth? The whole premise makes no sense. This is a typical fear based belief structure that explains all the unknown either by assigning it to a mythical god or devil.



I have a method for discovering truth and it doesn't involve trusting the Bible simply because the Bible has not demonstrated itself to be a reliable source of truth. When something provides the results that it promises and can be verified by independent outside sources, I pay attention. Many of the claims that the Bible makes are simply unsustainable.



Well, Protestants took over the killing in areas they held power. The Christian church began killing people from its beginnings. Other Christians were killed and their books burned to create the current version of the Bible.

I watched the video and it is simply a series of innuendo, symbol association, and paranoia with little or no evidence of any connections between the various organizations and their goals.

Similarity does not prove association. Again these types of presentations prey on people's fears and anything that has its basis in fear is highly suspect as far as I am concerned.

My dear online friend, Monsieur d'Allan . . .

You have indeed presented some thoughts which could give one pause. I perceive a certain perspective, perhaps, which begs some attention. At the moment, I am working on a sermon, but would like to come back to this a bit later.

Meanwhile, best regards as always,

Dave

Number 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 24:16 Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him.

Deut 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us….” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.