I don't see the church as "spiritually blind to it's condition". I see the church as saying ... it just don't matter as far as Salvation ... just HOW sick and sinful you may be. God loves and accepts you IN this sinful condition and GIVES you salvation despite that condition.

The woman caught in sin is a prime example.

The woman was saved BEFORE she went out and "sinned no more". Christ did not condemn her. She did not even repent. He just said ... "I don't condemn you".

And he doesn't condemn us. He came not to the world to condemn the world but to SAVE.

Had the object of your rhetorical example (the woman) disobeyed Jesus, she would have ended up lost.


Thanks,

oG

(John Calvin is dead)

This speaks volumes ....

I think I will pin it up on my wall as a clear example of the opposite side from what is so clear. I am glad you posted this. It helps clarify our differences.

Funny that, - this is exactly the condition described for God's last day professed followers. They don't see it - thanks for the example.


What are you talking about dude? God will not save us if we remain in a sinful condition?


Again, what do you mean? She was still on earth after Jesus told her to sin no more - she hasn't been saved totally yet - she's still in the ground? How do we even know she will be in heaven? For all you know she may have gone back to whoring.

Unlike you I do not believe in a "yo-yo" form of salvation. This is a belief system that provides no "blessed assurance" as the hymn says. In fact that kind of 'saved'/'not saved'/'saved'/'not saved' ... type of religion is totally soul-destroying. As Richard (cardw) has pointed out (correctly) on many occasions, this is a religious system based on fear and is completely non-productive.

Graeme

PS
Was the woman found in adultery saved by Jesus forgiving grace, or was she saved by her subsequent good works (refraining from further adultery)?

 Quote:

Was the woman found in adultery saved by Jesus forgiving grace, or was she saved by her subsequent good works (refraining from further adultery)?

Hi, Planey, you are right both ways. It was by Jesus' forgiving grace that she was saved, of that there is no doubt. Her continued salvation, however, depended upon her not returning to the life she had previously led, keeping her mind on Christ, and, if she fell into that sin again once again asking for His forgiveness AND the Holy Spirit's help in living that new life. Perfection will never come in this life -- we need to be covered by His righteousness, because our righteousness "is like filthy rags". We should praise Him daily for that.

We should note also, that Jesus did not preach to her a fiery sermon of the condemnation there would be if she sinned -- He offered to her that salvation that comes through loving obedience to Him.

Hitting people over the head with fiery sermons does not bring them to Jesus. That leads to a sytem of fear. A loving relationship with Him is the ONLY path to salvation.

Beryl

The conference presidents aren't going to say that because they would be afraid for their own jobs if they did. Our democratic system is conducive to a more political structure.

You don't know what form of salvation I believe in. I don't believe in it either but remember Salvation is a process and not an instant event. It's not once saved always saved dude?


The biblical assurance that we are meant to have is based on Christs ability to pull us through. It is not an assurance of our own salvation per say. Total salvation includeds the deliverance from this earth into a sinless world - none of us have that yet and that is why we live in hope as Paul says, "we are saved in hope, but why would one hope for what he already has" Paul goes on to explain that it is beneficial to only have a hope because we would not persevere if it were all ours now - makes sense doesn't it?


Sometimes God uses feaer and did use fear as a legitimate tool to get his people back on track - look at the minor prophets and their successes.


She was forgiven up to that point in time and it would seem she became a dedicated follower but will she be totally saved in heaven - God is the only one to judge this.


Lulling them to sleep with weak sermons will not do it either Beryl. In fact, I would rather be hit over the head these days so as I can be kept from falling asleep.


You have hit the nail on the head their sister. We have become so afraid of what others think that we have forgotten what God actually thinks. A situation in my country has existed where anything remotely negative or conflicting is looked on with fear and contempt. Evidenced here by my Ozzy counterparts.

I think this is still on topic...but this is something I really, really struggle with. I see us too often being held hostage by certain power brokers in the local churches. It's not always the ones with the money who are the power brokers, but they are influential for whatever reason and often use their influence to intimidate people.

The conference expects the pastors to demonstrate "leadership" in the churches without splitting them. This is nearly impossible to do without a great deal of diplomacy in dealing with these power brokers. I have seen pastors do this successfully in one church and fail at it in the next. There is no single answer that fits all churches.

I tend to be a blunt truth-teller myself, so I can relate to what you're saying about preaching the straight truth. On the other hand, I have learned that being blunt is usually not the most effective way to inspire people to change. It does work with a certain type of person, but not with most. So I guess there is a time and place to be blunt or to be more tactful and gentle.

Pastors have a tough job trying to reach the hearts of everyone in their congregations. Some people want to hear the straight truth, while others feel chastised at that kind of talk. On any given Sabbath, some people will truly need inspiring, while a few will need straight talk. I don't envy the pastor's job.

But I also feel that the members have to share ownership for what happens in the church. Imo, the people who won't stand up to the bullies are at least as guilty as the bullies. And they deserve the kind of church they get. In some churches, any kind of conflict is taboo, so you have church boards that vote with the wind in order to get along.

Tell me about it. You are correct. Power brokers come in all shapes and sizes even though the rich ones do usually weild the stick most times. Big families can cause trouble too. I pastored a church with a 4th generation family in it. Grandma and grandpa and daughter and son inlaw were all on the board. They all fought like cats and dogs but when you had to make a decision in the board - they stuck together like glue. The grandpappy was going home from board meetings and telling his CB mate everything we discussed. We had to discipline him but the family would not dismiss him from off the board. The church was therefor hampered in it's ability to move forward and let fresh blood in. Blood is thicker than the waters of baptism.


Exactly. What the conference wants and what God wants is diametrically opposed. If you want fresh numbers then you have to do some house cleaning. Churches across Oz remain in a state of limbo because everyone is too afraid to make the first move towards reformation which usually involves confronting the power brokers. So it never happens and pastors smile and preach on cute stuff without ever getting down to business. Jesus said if you live as he lived you will suffer persecution - and EGW says in the last days that persecution will come from those sitting in the pew next to you - work it out people.

I do believe there is a single answer/remedy that will fix all broken churches - preach what God wants and stop preaching what the feminazi's want.


I have never been needlessly rude or blunt when I was a minister. I was always the first with cap in hand on the doorstep of members homes offering to talk or apologise. I no longer am the man I used to be because I really don't care anymore. I have no reputation to uphold like most ministers do. I have no need for the church and it's polotics and so I can say what I want now without the conference president ringing me up giving me an earbashing for following Christs commands.


Pastors bring alot of it on themselves however. Name a pastor who doesn't have at least some enemies? Even the most retiring and placating ministers have some who secretly hate them. In fact, you are probably better off dishing up the Lords Spinach to the mob because they will hate you in the end anyway. No I don't have alot of sympathy for ministers if they lay down at the alter of fear and popularity just to hold onto their jobs. let the people shake them I say and maybe we will get someone soon in Oz who speaks from the hip.


Do you live in Oz? It sure sounds like it. Maybe there are similarities in our countries as far as SDA churches go after all. You would think by some other US comments that we are worlds apart - I suppose if we all wore rose coloured glasses we wouldn't see anything wrong.