Why is it Lord that when I read about the fame of preachers and holy men in the past that made huge changes to the church and caused revolutions. Why is it that these men were able to get away with saying things in their day that we do not/would not tolerate today? Where have all the good preachers gone? - not the cute satelite ones but the ones who offended many as you did Lord. The ones who preached without fear of offending and told it as it is. Why does the church encourage weak leadership/preaching and hit's hard those men who speak the truth and tell it like it is?

Don't answer that Lord I know - Laodicea.

1.)I can send you a PM indicating where the good ones are if you are interested.

2.)But the ones preaching Hell Fire are gone for the most part. They have left Christianity because they discovered they just don't measure up to their own beliefs.

3.) Are you one that believes the church is now Babylon? I think EGW has a few words about that. And personally I would disagree. Our church is one of the fastest growing churches in the world. And it is because of the truth that we preach about the Bible. I don't see any weak preachers actually. Our message is one of the Bible. I don't personally see preachers preaching weak Untruth teachings in the SDA church. And I don't know of any conferences who would promote that. Could you name any pastors like that?

I feel very positive about our church and the message that it has for this end time. It is a message of hope and assurance. But if you are after Hell Fire and "offending" ... then I am sure you must not feel at home.



I can see you are big into "offending" but I don't see much fruit in that. All that does is to create an enemy not a follower of Christ. Jesus attacked the establishment of the Jews. It needed attacking. But God has built up His church. We don't need to attack the Seventh Day Adventist Church. For it's teachings are biblical.

True there are places in this world with the "church appears to be asleep", but I have seen incredible evidence of onfire church members and dedicated pastors. I wish you could see situations where a thousand people are baptized in one day, where more than 1/2 the members have many many weekly Bible studies with their friends and neighbors in their communities, where young people are preaching this gospel not only abroad but in their home countries, where there are ministries to heal and redeem the wounded and broken. Yes, there are problems in our church, just like any church but there is much to rejoice over and many incredible churches, pastors and church members to associate with. Maybe instead of cursing the darkness, when we see it, we should light a candle and join the many other candles that are brightly burning in the darkness of this world.

No I don't believe the church is babylon. I also know about the good work being done in other countries but in mine there is a dearth of good preachers, everyone relies on the satelite dishes for good preaching - but they are evangelists. We need good pastoral preaching - calling sin by it's right name.

The ones Jesus offended were the hypocrites, the church leaders who were leading people astray, not the seekers. Jesus didn't condemn people. He didn't expose their sins openly. He drew people to Him.

Is this what you consider to be the "good news". I thought the message of the gospel was the forgiveness of those sins through faith in our Saviour and Lord ... Jesus Christ.

Perhaps this confusion is the cause of some of the trouble with reaching our young people.

True. Let us speak the truth in love.

That's partly true. As to offenses, Jesus' neighbors were offended in Matthew 13:57.

Those who turn to the world an deny faith are referred to as being offended (Matthew 24:10).

Christ's Disciples were offended (Matthew 26:31-33)

In the parable of the Sower, people who live shallow lives and don't endure are represented as being offended (Mark 4:17).

It's all about Him dear ones,


oG

Why is it so important to focus on sin? We need to lift up Jesus, and He will do the convicting and draw people to Himself. He doesn't focus on how bad we are, so why should we feel the need to do it?

I agree that we shoud not be focusing on the sins of the people. It can be very discouraging for the spiritual life of a church to hear the words of a preacher saying, "We are not doing anything, we are not doing what we should" week after week without any encouragement or counsel on how to do better.

That's about as effective as looking in the mirror and seeing what kind of dirt is on ones face and thenwalking away and doing nothing about it. If the Gospel were preached with conviction and the power of the Holy Spirit more than mens ideas we'd see a different situation.

We must also face the reality that we are a sleepy church that has some serious issues to deal with (See Rev 3:14-22) There is a time to look at ourselves and call sin what it is so that we don't become comfortable with it, but rather deal with it. Paul speaks of this when rebuking the Corinthians about their practice of celebrating the Lords supper.

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 1Co 11:31-32

Not all preachers sent by God in scripture brought good news. There is a time for everything. Those living without Christ in the street - yes - good news. Those self righteous church members in the time of Laodicea (our time) - bad news with instruction on how to escape it of course.

we shouln't live in la la land when the church in the western world is struggling to reach westerners. One of the sins of Laodicea was saying that there is nothing wrong remember.

So, am I hearing you correctly?

You want to see more sinners convicted of their sins and change?

Is it the Holy Spirit that you want to see working? If so, ask Him...Is it the power of the Holy Spirit that you want...ie to convict and to change? Then you need to understand that you are seeking to be as God and you need to repent!

All we are asked to do is to be witnesses for Him.Nothing more and nothing less...

Thank you Neil. I was beginning to wonder about this conversation.

I would be interested in knowing more particulars about what you are talking about, because I have not met anyone who doesn't think there is something wrong or that we need to change. But I have seen lots of disagreement about WHAT it is that is wrong and WHAT it is that we need to do about it. Pastors and churches are trying many ways to reach lost people, but any time someone tries something different, there will be criticism. You say there should be more preaching with conviction, and others have other ideas. You are right, there is probably a time and place for most of the ideas, and that's why I am interested in knowing what kind of situation you are talking about.

Not true. Just witnessing is not all God asks us to do. there is much more to the christian life than just wittnessing. Some are called to speak on God'as behalf to his own people. That is not witnessing but is shepherding - which there is not alot of in yours and my church.

What I want is not being discussed here. Before we can speculate on what we want, we need to know what we believe about this particular issue. If someone asks why the preaching doesn't address the needs of the current church population then we should not automatically brand them a troublemaker.

You are wrong, MM. Speaking on God's behalf IS WITNESSING....Real mean find dictionarys and read definitions. Some find back up in the bible....

And your church may not be shepherding very well, but mine is doing just fine for where it is at....

Witnessing is taking the Gospel to those who do not have it. Shepherding may involve witnessing but will include, preaching, teaching, encouragement, rebuke and correction. (it will also involve dealing with wolves in your midst).

If your pastor hasn't taught you this stuff, then that particular side of shepherding has been neglected at your church.

What you are talking about is a 'calling', MM. All Christians are to be witnesses...only a few are called by God to do a specific work.

And you still haven't answered my question....are you desiring/wanting to convict of sin, like the Holy Spirit or are you wanting to be a witness for God? Totally different concepts and the desire is from two different sources in the Universe....

If you want to "Sheppard" as you call it, from what you described, it sounds like desiring to control people. It's roots are found in Eden with a desire to be God. I am sorry, MM...but I can not be a part of that...God made people to be free, and to grow with thier talents. It is theirs to exercise. Now, I can exhort, inspire, seek to encourage the use of that talent, but to control someone else's talent is not my right.

You are limiting those who God calls which is all of us, to simply sending out love messages.

Look in the bible and our church history. It is not all sweets brother but some of us have to do the hard work of standing firm when the disrupters or feminazi's come along and try to tame everything down. You think the last crisis of the church is gonna be coming from murderers and rapists? Think again. EGW says it is the message to the Laodiceans that is gonna cause the shaking because it unsettles the self satisfied and self righteous ones. This will bring the enemy out because his deceptive spell over the church as being a "safe and secure place" will be blown wide open.

It's less about calling out sinners and more about challenging the status quo with me but if you are saying there needs to be total love all around then I would have an issue with that.

We are at war mate and so you will have enemies if you start doing waht Jesus said and did. EGW says that the last great crisis will come from within our church - how do you deal with that I wonder? Is it because we have all been concentrating so hard on getting everyone to like us that we have changed and compromised our stand to acheive this? Laodiceanism is the enemy for us at the end here now - primarily a deception where those who are under it see nothing wrong and if history repeats will also persecute those who challenge them.

I suppose we could knock them over the head with The Truth and shove EGW down their throats for good measure.

That's one way it has been done but doesn't work does it.

Another way is recognise that doing what Jesus actually wants is never going to be met with smiles from the enemy. "All who live Godly lives in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution" - NT.

Where did we ever get the idea that our enemies will be Godless heathens? History has shown again and again that it is religious leaders who knew the martyrs better than anyone else were their persecutors. Changing the way the church thinks will be met with opposition from within - our greatest challenges will be standing firm against those who sit in the pews next to us.

You are right about this. For as we know ... many of the heathen will be saved.



Do the internet pews count? I was just wondering how many manly Male Man points I might get for standing up to you.

Do you think this describes your attitude a little bit?

I agree totally with this post. Almost nothing gripes me more than people who will not have an opinion or take a stand that is different from their "friends." And I have said the same thing, almost word for word. If we can't stand up for something in church, where WILL we stand up?

However, this is not a feminine or masculine characteristic. Your diatribes against women and the men who love them are pretty far-fetched and are really not helpful to your cause. Neither masculine nor feminine should be taken to the extreme, but should balance each other and enhance each other. Both sides have much to learn from the other. In my opinion, you would get further by being a little gentler. Sure, Jesus had harsh words at time, but he was also gentle much of the time. Would you call Him a feminazi?

 Quote:

Both sides have much to learn from the other. In my opinion, you would get further by being a little gentler. Sure, Jesus had harsh words at time, but he was also gentle much of the time. Would you call Him a feminazi?

True, Carolaa. Jesus had a right to call the pharisees "hypocrites" -- BECAUSE He is God (at that time God in human flesh) and He knows the heart of every person.

Nowhere do I find Him giving to us the right to judge anyone as sinner or not. That is His prerogative.

So -- what about the sermons? I have no objection to a preacher calling the congregation sinners -- so long as he or she makes it quite clear that the preacher is included in that remark!

But there is a better way. Preach the truth with love -- and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. He is the only one who can convict of sin. We can't. Not all the fiery preaching in the world can convict of sin -- unless the Holy Spirit is there to do so.

In fact, it is often the well-planned simpler service, where the preacher has spent time with God in the preparation, and where the Holy Spirit has been invited, not only by the congregation, but by the preacher as he/she has prepared the service during the week. The sermon lays the groundwork. It is the appeal to the hearts of the congregation at the end which allows the Holy Spirit to work in their hearts and convict, and a well-chosen hymn of consecration allows the congregation to voice their acceptance.

Sure, there will be some in the congregation whose hearts have not been touched, because the Holy Spirit knows just where they are at right then -- and they may not be ready.

I am not talking here about what some people might call "fluffy sermons" -- I am talking about sermons that present truth in a loving way -- even hard-hitting truth, both prepared and presented in love. It is the Holy Spirit that does the convicting. As soon as a preacher tries to do the convicting, he/she is trying to do a work that is not his/her's.

God bless,

Beryl

Ha, haaaaa....you people are unreal. You carry on like a bunch of pussies - "ewww what a nasty man MM is" or "please dont get personal" - this site is a joke.

- I'm not against women but you girls sure hate a male who defends himself it seems.



You have misunderstood again. A feminazi isn't necissarily a woman - it is a mindset. Being gentle has nothing to do with it although feminazi's like to make out they are sweet and gentle but their true colours are revealed when you cross them - a bit like Beryl.



Gee Beryl, maybe I was mistaken when I read what you said about me in the other thread - silly me.
"do you not know we shall judge angels" - "judge righteous judgement" - yes we can judge but we are given a warning not to judge unfairly. Dont get me going on the greek.



Or the preacher has been brought up to believe that he must not offend one soul in the audience. This can frustrate the and lead to what is called a dead sermon. God wants to speak through our young men but the young men are trained to be nice instead of good.

 Quote:

Or the preacher has been brought up to believe that he must not offend one soul in the audience. This can frustrate the and lead to what is called a dead sermon. God wants to speak through our young men but the young men are trained to be nice instead of good.

Who said anything about offending someone in the congregation? I was speaking of allowing the Holy Spirit to do the convicting --and it is possible to present the truth in love, not offend, and let the Holy Spirit do His work. Offending someone shows that the preacher is trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit him/herself.



The best service that I have heard for a long time was only a few weeks ago. It was taken by 3 young men. They managed to do what every preacher should be able to do -- they spoke the truth IN LOVE -- and they made a call for those who wanted to give their hearts to God anew to stand -- and they had a response from a good half of the congregation.

Jesus spoke in love -- even when He was pointing out the sins of the Pharisees -- because He LOVED them, and to see them turning away from truth broke His heart.

Yes, that is true -- but we will then be in heaven and have access to "the books" -- and be able to see what they did and why.

Now, we do not have access to the heavenly records here, so we can form an opinion, but cannot judge. "Judge not, that ye be not judged."


Beryl

Well, I make no pretense, and never have. ...I am a hypocrite in the first order. And you, MM, need a good whoopin', cuz you are making us males look bad. Pickin' on our senior ladies is just wrong, by anyone's standard. Calling our ladies 'feminazi' is just plain bad mouthing women in general. You need a reality check. You are just way off base...

Then why spend any time here. Why not find a manly site?



I have to object to the sexist remark. Our church has recognized God's calling of women pastors ... so why do you exclude the role of women in this remark?

Your constant attack of the woman's gender is deafening.

So whenever a biblical preacher like Paul or Peter offended the religious leaders they were trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit themselves?



Must have been a world changing sermon Beryl - I have not heard a thing and it was two weeks ago you say?

You see this is what I mean. If George Whitefield or one of the radical preachers of the 17th or 18th Century were to preach at my church two weeks ago - you would have heard the rumours by now. I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit was not there at your church or that it was a boring sermon by those young men but we need to lift the bar higher still. If you lived in the time of the Master preachers then you would hear of their reputation and it would not all be good. These men not only were famous and their reputation travelled overseas bu they often polarised public opinion and drew criticism from many quarters. I'm sorry Beryl but if your preachers are worth their salt then we shall begin to hear more of them as they stir up satan who knows good preachers and tries to bring them down.



So you have never formed an opinion in a board meeting or on a Conference executive comittee when someone's job was on the line? You have never voted to not put someone in a position when on a selection comittee? C'mon Beryl - when the scripture says "judge not that ye be not judged" - the greek word is "condemn" - quite a different meaning to how we use it today. The fact is that the church out of necessity has to make judgements every day across the world concerning those it keeps and those it allows to stay - it's called disfellowshipping. That is making judgement about a members status within the fold - please odn't use that old "thou shalt not judge" line - it's out of context and old hat.

I do not deserve the credit you gave me for this statement ... but I do agree and respect it.

Huh?

You replied to Redwood's post, but it wasn't Redwood you were quoting - thus the confusion.

Offending the people is not the measuring stick of truth IMHO. Yet, I know what your mean !

BUT! If we are followers of Jesus and His word, it is clear as to whom He offended and whom His message was good news. His message was offensive to "Know it all clergy" and was good news to simple people who were squeezed by their necks in ritualistic way to heaven so to speak. The preachers, as we know them today, are not what Biblically they have meant to be. We all are the preachers! There are pastors and deacons that take care of the spiritual needs of the church and make sure that the meetings are orderly and the truth is prevailing while empowering people by word of God to discover their gifts, but it is not their sole job to preach :). If we are looking to blame preachers for the lack of church's growth in US, then we are to look to ourselves... as it is a job of every Christian to preach the good news and develop relationships as Jesus did. So there are still millions of great preachers, they go unrecognized and are not given spotlight... yet they develop relationships and are not merely being a spiritual accountants that count every person who "comes up front" as being "saved".

Agree mostly but "preaching" or as the bible describes it in the gifts - "prophesying" is a gift only some have not all. We are all called to be witnesses but not all are called to preach.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

In Bible preaching and proclaiming is interchangeably used. Preaching is proclaiming, and likewise... proclaiming is preaching. Although preaching and teaching are similar... preaching in the Bible almost always used in the context of proclaiming the Gospel, or proclaiming word of admonition as in Jonah's case. Are all expected to proclaim (preach good news to the world). I think so. Can some do it better than others. Of course.

In context of Spiritual gifts Paul states that we have to not only use the once we have been given, but also desire others.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.


As far as biblical usage of the preaching and teaching... in 1 Corinthians 12 teaching is....

1320 // didaskalov // didaskalos // did-as'-kal-os //

from 1321 ; TDNT - 2:148,161; n m

AV - Master (Jesus) 40, teacher 10, master 7, doctor 1; 58

1) a teacher
2) in the NT one who teaches concerning the things of God, and the
duties of man
1a) one who is fitted to teach, or thinks himself so
1b) the teachers of the Jewish religion
1c) of those who by their great power as teachers draw crowds
around them i.e. John the Baptist, Jesus
1d) by preeminence used of Jesus by himself, as one who showed
men the way of salvation
1e) of the apostles, and of Paul
1f) of those who in the religious assemblies of the Christians,
undertook the work of teaching, with the special assistance of
the Holy Spirit
1g) of false teachers among Christians



In Mark 16:15 preaching means ...

2784 // khrussw // kerusso // kay-roos'-so //

of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 3:697,430; v

AV - preach 51, publish 5, proclaim 2, preached + 2258 2,
preacher 1; 61

1) to be a herald, to officiate as a herald
1a) to proclaim after the manner of a herald
1b) always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an
authority which must be listened to and obeyed
2) to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done
3) used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters
pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the
apostles and other Christian teachers



As you can see these are two different things and preaching is for everyone.

Your basic premise is wrong I feel. If you believe that all have the gift of preaching then you will run into problems elsewhere in scripture.

The word "preach" in the OT was only ever associated with prophets. That is those who preached had a direct message from the Lord whether through vision or inspiration. When you come to the NT, this is the understanding of the NT culture. A preacher was one like John the baptist with a very clear "thus says the lord".

It is also the understanding of EGW that preaching is giving a message direct from God. Not all have this gift and not all have the gift of teaching as evidenced by the gift lists in the Epistles.


This clearly demonstrates a pecking order if you like and pastors arein there as a gifted ministry to the church alog with others that were not mentioned like "helps" ect.

I understand greek and did two years of it in my theology degree. What you present shows me nothing that preaching or teaching are related.

if we continue the argument that all can preach then we will continue to have the situation in our pulpits - useless as tits on a bull.

 Quote:

useless as tits on a bull.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Not a very gentlemanly expression.

I would be interested to hear these preachers who can't preach! I can only remember a couple of sermons in my lifetime where I have left church feeling that I didn't get anything out of the sermon.

Even a child can preach a sermon that would have a message from God -- if the hearer was listening to the message with a heart open to the Holy Spirit and not just sitting there trying to work out whether it was a good sermon or not.

When we come to church, we come with the specific aim to be there to meet with God -- and our fellow sinners who all want to live better. We should come to the throne of God, and should ask Him to bless the speaker, to give him the right words to reach SOMEONE'S heart, and ask God to reach you, personally, through the message of the day.

If we have come specifically to pass judgment on the speaker, then, of course, it will be a bad sermon. If we have come to find a message for ourselves, with the help of God WE WILL FIND IT, REGARDLESS OF THE ABILITY OR OTHERWISE OF THE SPEAKER! Incidently, the Spirit of Prophecy has a lot to say about those who continually criticise the sermons. Check the long list in the Index.

Beryl

Beryl ... you have made some excellent points here. Food for thought.

When I hear some sermons that I don't feel are that good ... In my mind I try to rephrase it into what I think God would have to say if He were actually speaking. It has worked for me.

I've found I can be blessed with even the most lacking of sermons.

Thank you, Beryl! I was wondering if that particular set of words was an Aussie expression, so I didn't say anything.

Yes, it is an expression that SOME Aussies would use -- but not the nice types.

You don't have to hear about the ones that can't preach beryl, just see if you can name any preachers from Australia that are world renowned today outside of our denomination. If you have an attitude to always forgive the messenger for serving up milk instead of the meat God has ordered, then you will be lulled into a stupor and think that the most boring sermons are wonderful.


She herself criticised the quality of sermons and says exactly what I am saying about preachers in the last days - wussy sermons abound Beryl, are we so indoctrinated and in love with the institution of the SDA church that we cannot hear the warning of God?


Thankyou for that clear cut example of what I have been saying all along. We make "niceness" our golden calf at which we worship and we repulse everything including the truth if it appears that it will threaten our nice little safe Laodicean church from conflict.

My late mother told a tale of going to hear a preacher - who was quite famous in the country, if not world wide, many years ago - he was someone who irritated her. She prayed that she would hear the message, not the preacher - and later on recalled the message with gratitude and had trouble remembering who had delivered it.

Perhaps what we hear depends on how we are listening.

 Quote:

Perhaps what we hear depends on how we are listening.

Exactly!! Those who want to find something to criticise will always find plenty. Those who listen for the message of the preacher will go away blessed.

Beryl

Maybe we need a little more of this today - instead of someone who we like, maybe we nedd someone who irritates us to the point where it challenges our nice little world.


And those who continue on forgiving the quality of our preaching will find plenty to forgive. Laodicea says, "I see nothing wrong?"

If we whacked all the preachers who didn't meet the criteria presented ... we would not have many preachers ... and we are already so short. I guess we could just resort to the videos and TV evangelists.