I think one of the complicated issues in Christianity is the way we are saved. Clearly, one will immediatly say that we are saved by grace which covers our unperfectness. However, according to Ellen White we should be perfect obedient to the law. In the new testament it talks about that the law causes anger. Actually i am experiencing this myself, why should i be thankfull to Jesus if he saves me if the only way that i am saved is perfect obedience to the law? So my question actually is; what is the difference between being saved by keeping the law and being saved by Ellen White s her definition of grace?

I think Ellen White s definition is not totally biblical because in the new testament it talks about sins done in the spirit and sins done in the flesh, which somehow is okay because we have been made alive by the spirit and our flesh is dead.

You can find all the quotes you want to support either view of the issue of Salvation by Grace ... in the Bible and Ellen White. I could supply many of those to support my view but what is it worth ... when each individual will interpret all quotes to their particualar bias due to their life experience and current understanding. So ... I will resist the quoting thing ... it only gets me in trouble any ways.

But let me explain my personal understanding ... which is not worth anything because each person has to gain an understanding for themselves.

Here goes .... We are saved by perfect obedience ... but the only perfect obedience that is good enough is the perfect obedience of Jesus. He fulfilled the law so that we might not be punished for falling short. We must have that applied to our account or we are lost.

Any amount of perfect obedience that we allow Christ to do in our lives ... will just not amount to a hill of beans in relation to our salvation. It is just not enough. We must have the life of Jesus to our account or we are lost.

Grace ... it is by grace that HE applies His obedience to our account. Therefore we are saved only by the perfect obedience of the law that is applied to our account through the Grace of God and the same Grace that caused Him to live that perfect life and to die for us thereby we can live due to HIS perfect obedience.

This is one of the reasons that many Christians can never be sure of salvation. It is not clear. This keeps people in a low grade fear all the time. This is one reason that I believe that Christianity is simply not true.

Its manipulative, its complicated, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to maintain, and its based on fear. And yet God is supposed to be the very definition of Love.

It has become clear to me that the whole Christian system of theology and salvation are not based on love at all. It is based on a form of double think that requires one to accept shame based doctrines and call it love.

This is very easy to demonstrate because any discussion about law versus grace will present a multitude of contradictory solutions all based on quotes from the Bible and/or Ellen White.

Not sure where all this confusing talk comes in. Its pretty simple really.

If you are really converted you love God with all of your heart. You surrender all to him.

Now because you love God you want to keep his commandments. But the only way you can do that is with the help of God. So there is no keeping of the commandments in yourself its worth nothing and impossible.

"He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me"

---------------

Now what starts to get people is not the above but what happens after you are converted and sin. Thats where people really start to get mixed up. And in Adventism you mainly have two branches.

1. All sin is the same no matter if its willful known sin or something you did not even choose to do but did out of habbit before thinking. This is the view of sin that goes with the view that even if you "make mistakes" and choose to sin its the over all direction of your life that matters.

2. God judges sin depending on what it is. The SIN and sin view. SIN that seperates you from God is willful rebellion or something know you are choosing to do. As opposed to sin were you are not choosing to sin but relized after the fact what had happened and repented right then.

With choice 1 normaly it is normaly explained you are not lost until you have commited so many sins you have grieved away the holy spirit.

With choice 2 its explained one willful known sin is enough to seperate you from God. As you are choosing to rebel against him even tho he can help you overcome any sin. But God would not let you die in some split secound before you were about to repent of your sin. So for example if you have some rare lapse and think no God I know this is wrong but I am doing it anyway. God will not let Satan jump in and take your life in that moment in time.

-----------------------------

And I am sure I could explain them better if I had more sleep. And you all can easly look up arguments for each. I would suggest looking up every argument for each side. Every bit of scripture given and every Ellen White quote given and compare all of them. There is a huge amount of information on he subject. And as its the most basic and important thing any christian can consider it should be one EVERY christian is an expert on.

By the way yes there are many varations on the two examples given but from much experence normaly they fall in one of those two categories.

We can put the sin issue aside. For Christ died for our sins. We are now dead to our sins.

What will prevent us from living with Him is to reject His Salvation for us ... His free gift.

The price of sin has been paid. We can accept that and have eternal life ... or we can reject it and go with Satan and get what he gets. Christ was the first sin bearer ... Satan will be the final sin bearer.

Ooooohh, I don't know....this talk about sins is, quite honestly, outside my being....I grew up in sin, and am familiar with it to the point that I don't know how to live without being in sin...I suspect that you are the same...you, as well as me, don't know any different.

What we do know is forgiveness. and mercy...and hope...we know compassion, and kindness....Love maybe a bit more elusive, but many of us know love, but we can not sustain it.

I think EGW had it right when she intimates "we should be perfect obedient to the law"....what is not said is the following words....to the best of our ability.

Now, I don't know about you, but I desire to live free from guilt. I desire to live according to the law. But.....
there are days when I could just care less about it than other days...there are days when I try and try, and I keep failing and failing....there are days when no matter what I begin to attempt to do, it is wrong from the git-go. And that is where grace, and forgiveness from God comes to us...again and again and again..and that is ok.

In fact, EGW mirrors this in her writings...You can see this when you read it in the DA of the leper who returns and says "If you want to, you can make me clean.", of the captain who asks Christ for healing of his servant without coming to his home.....Forgiveness and compassion and kindness is abundantly free, and boundless in it's applications....

Salvation by grace and not by the law means that you don't need a Saviour, right? That's right. What a stupid thing for Jesus to come to the world and shamefully died at the cross. For what?

What is the definition of sin?

And now, if simply grace and no law applied, we don't need a Saviour! So, please make a complaint to Jesus now how stupid He is to died at the cross.

For what? What's the purpose? To make the humankind free to kill, steal, or worship other gods since we don't need the law after the cross, right?

Oh yeah, I love the grace of God. Beautiful. And I really need it. But His grace is NOT a certification or a licence for me to freely breaking His laws. Instead, to respect His laws even more.

By the way, "Perfection" here is not directly comes from Ellen White. Not at all. She just simply borrowed what Jesus said in Matt.5:48
"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus says in John 14:15, "If you love me, you don't need my Laws anymore, it's okay to break my law, just receive my grace anyway."

Please correct me if I quoted wrong here.

Whoa there, nelly...Slow down there....

We know that we need a Savior...but the practical aspects are overwhelming....There are days when no matter what you do, it's wrong....

To live according to some standard, without kindness, compassion, forgiveness, and hope is some sort of dysfunctional living....

When Jesus said that we were to be perfect as God in Heaven is perfect...he left open the question.."Perfect what?" Perfect in character? We have marred characters already, and even when we come to Christ, our characters are still marred. Perfect bodys? That doesn't deserve an rebuttal...Perfect what? Perfect human beings... as maybe...God is a perfect God? Maybe God is perfect...but even in paradise, human being were never perfect. If they were, they never would have had the power of choice....And, if you remember, we choose badly....

But we now know the wrong choice, and we have experience ...Now God calls us back to be human beings...the loving, compassionate, kind, hopeful, and gracious human beings that we can be....

I found this topic confusing, it seems that on one hand everyone is saved by grace alone and on the other hand faith without works is dead.

While trying to study this topic I came across a paper written by a member of the Biblical Research Institute of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Justification by Faith: An Adventist Understanding
by Peter M. van Bemmelen, Th.D. August 2007

This article is listed unded Philosophy, Conversations with Other Christians, World Evangelical Alliance.

I would have posted it in it's entirity but it is a little too long to do that. The following is the ,pdf file location. This helped me understand the churches position as it fell into place with what I had beleived.

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org...0by%20faith.pdf

Gene

Relax, Neil !

I am sorry for your belief [or maybe just your personal experience?] of saying that, "There are days when no matter what you do, it's wrong...."

But in here you don't say the attitude of any individual. Whether in bad day or good day, this is not the poit. The real issue here is if that person's tendency in character, attitude and motivation is still always love the Lord and love one another....and then this will brings him/her to the perfect obedience to His Law even in her/his weakness.

How about the ability to obey the Law? That's God's business. Not ours.

I just don't know if you believe that the Holy Spirit is able to give POWER for us to the obedience of His Law.

I am weak but He is strong.

I am not clear here as to the first couple of sentences....Could you expand/expound/clear this up a bit?

And not to harp on this, but here is where I am having problems-
Whether in bad day or good day, this is not the poit. Poit=Point , right?

If this is correct, then I would reply that this is the point...You are covered by God's grace. Your job is to focus on doing what is right in God's eyes. Some days you just don't feel like doing it...and you don't do it. Does that mean you are lost?
I don't think so...

The real issue here is if that person's tendency in character, attitude and motivation is still always love the Lord and love one another....and then this will brings him/her to the perfect obedience to His Law even in her/his weakness.
I kinda disagree with this....as it implys that you will realize perfect obedience....Sorry, but most days when I feel the lowest, are days that I am really living in obedience to God's law. And there are days when I am high and thinking things are really good/cool and I am kinda blowing it. So, "perfect obedience" is a judgement call outside of you...by Someone else...

Neil ... Some of us apparently pop in God's Grace and then pop out of God's Grace.

Pop IN ... Pop OUT ... Pop IN ... Pop OUT.

If you're perfect ... you are IN. You sin ... you're OUT.

It is like a Jack in the Box. You never have the assurance of Salvation. You are too busy popping in and popping out.

But you do get a lot of exercise.

Really? You proceed to give view of two options that are contradictory with each other, but of course I need to determine which of these is right because to make a mistake is fatal.



This is simple? Looks like more double speak to me.



Oh, there are variations. This looks pretty simple to me. I have to read all the arguments, go through all the variations, determine which side is right and after that figure out how I can keep from sinning either by God's power for stuff I can't do on my own, and figure out what I can keep from willfully doing and keep that perfectly. I also have to determine if the sin I'm doing is willful or my own weakness.

Oh this is really simple.

This and the rest of the posts more than adequately proves my point that Christianity is ultimately based on fear and confusion.

Richard I can understand your confusion and fear.

But there are some of us who have the assurance of Salvation through the blood of our Saviour.

I didn't say that I was confused and fearful. It is my view that Christianity is based on fear and confusion.

Sorry I'm confused.

That's not the Christianity that I know.

I said the first part above that was not complicated. The why we want to keep the commandments. Every view I have ever seen says we want to keep them becouse of love. So as mentioned this part is not confusing. BUT there is very much a debate and confusion about what happens when you sin after you are saved. That was the point. And I think you thought I was trying to say there is not some confusion on salvation and I was not. But I could have explained what I ment better but I had not had much sleep.

What in the world are you talking about? Double speak about what. I never said one way or the other was the way to go. I just present what I have seen as the MAIN two views in the adventist church. Then I said you should go study it for yourself. So not sure where the double speak in there is.

Ahh I see you don't believe in it so will not take the time to study it. Thats fine but would it not be better to not wast the time of people that do believe:) I mean we love you and will pray for you. And we will answer any questions you like. But I would bet if I wanted to we could debate on the subject and spend huge amounts of time on it with no chance of me changing your mind. But thats not my job anyway its the Holy Spirits job to convict you of the truth. But I will keep praying for you and I hope you find what you seek.

For those interested in study on the subject here is Faith And Works (Ellen White) online. http://www.nisbett.com/reference/fw/default.htm

Sulla ... thanks for the link. I particularly found this comment interesting that I found there ...



This would be in sharp contrast to those who state they will never again willfully sin. Personally , I know I will willfully sin. I will never arrive to a state that I stop doing so. But, I continue to strive to abide ... and He does give me blessings of victory each and every day.

Praise His name.

Victory over sin. Can we afford it?

Whoa! I must be walking on water or on air!.....

'cuz I ain't making any claim to perfection...infact, I claim to be imperfect....

.......[looking at David] Hey, I heard that from here!

You are the one who responded to my post. My post stated that knowing if one is saved is not a simple matter. If you are actually talking to me, then this is the topic.

You began your reply to my statement that knowing if one is saved is not clear...



And then you ask...



You claim that its simple and then you present a complicated two step method with two options and instructions that I need to study a lot of material to understand it. That is classic double speak.



You have no idea how much I have studied this topic. And its an oxymoron to claim that something is simple and then state that I have to study it to understand it for myself. And I don't find it a waste of time talking with believers because I believe that these beliefs are harmful.

Sure glad to help with the link. Below is some more used for to promote one claim or another. I prefer to look at them together.

We are to live only one day at a time. We do not have to do the work of a life-time in a few hours. We need not look into the future with anxiety; for God has made it possible for us to be overcomers every day, and he will give needed grace, that we may be conquerors. I am glad we have only a day at a time in which to work.

Genuine sanctification is the work of a life-time. It is climbing the ladder round after round. {RH, December 1, 1885 par. 12}

Sanctification is the work of a life-time. First the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear, then the ripening and the harvest; for when the fruit is perfect, it is ready for the sickle.
245
{2SP 244.1}

None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete

Who is willing to take himself in hand? Who is willing to lay his finger upon his cherished idols of sin, and allow Christ to purify the temple by casting out the buyers and sellers? Who is prepared to allow Jesus to enter the soul and cleanse it from everything that tarnishes or corrupts? The standard is "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). God calls upon men and women to empty their hearts of self. Then His Spirit can find unobstructed entrance. Stop trying to do the work yourself. Ask God to work in and through you until the words of the apostle become yours, "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me."--Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, pp. 366, 367. {YRP 51.3}


God will honor and uphold every true-hearted, earnest soul who is seeking to walk before Him in the perfection of Christ's grace. He will never leave nor forsake one


-211-

humble, trembling soul. Shall we believe that He will work in our hearts? that if we allow Him to do so, He will make us pure and holy, by His rich grace qualifying us to be laborers together with Him? Can we with keen, sanctified perception appreciate the strength of His promises, and appropriate them, not because we are worthy, but because by living faith we claim the righteousness of Christ? {2SAT 210.4}

By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified. There is no power in law to save the transgressor of law. If man, after his transgression, could have been saved by his utmost energy to keep the law, then Jesus need not have died. Man could have stood on his own merits and said, "I am sinless." God will never bring down the law to man's standard and man can never lift himself up to answer to its claims of perfection. But Christ comes to our world and pays the sinner's debt, suffers the penalty for transgression of the law and satisfies justice, and now the sinner may claim


-142-

the righteousness of Christ. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Romans 5:20. {6MR 141.2}
But grace does not come in to excuse the sinner in the continuance of sin. God's grace does not detract from the law, but establishes the law as changeless in its character. Here "mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Ps. 85:10. God looks upon His Son dying upon the cross and is satisfied, and Jesus is called "the Lord our righteousness." Then let the sinner by faith appropriate the merits of the blood of a crucified Redeemer to his own case--"the Lord my righteousness."--Ms 30, 1889, pp. 21, 22. ("Experience Following the Minneapolis Conference," June, 1889.) {6MR 142.1}
I am glad that a time has come when something will stir our people to investigate the points of our faith for themselves. . . . My cry has been: Investigate the Scriptures for yourselves, and know for yourselves what saith the Lord. No man is to be authority for us. If he has received his light from the Bible so may we also go to the same source for light and proof to substantiate the doctrines which we believe. The Scriptures teach that we should give a reason of the hope that is within us with meekness and fear.--Letter 7, 1888, pp. 3, 4. (To Brother Healey, December 9, 1888.)


Those who are truly seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. The more their minds dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern Its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own weakness and defects. Those who claim to be without sin give evidence that they are far from holy. It is because they have no true knowledge of Christ that they can look upon themselves as reflecting His image. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes.--The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, pp. 301, 302. {YRP 97.4}

God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1}


Sanctification is a daily work. Let none deceive themselves with the belief that God will pardon and bless them while they are trampling upon one of His requirements. The willful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Whatever may be the ecstasies of religious feeling, Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor Him. {LHU 144.3}
"To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." If we indulge anger, lust, covetousness, hatred, selfishness, or any other sin, we become servants of sin. "No man can serve two masters." If we serve sin, we cannot serve Christ. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" {LHU 144.4}
If we would develop a character which God can accept, we must form correct habits in our religious life. Daily prayer is as essential to growth in grace and even to spiritual life itself, as is temporal food to physical well-being. We should accustom ourselves to often lift the thoughts to God in prayer. If the mind wanders, we must bring it back; by persevering effort, habit will finally make it easy. We cannot for one moment separate ourselves from Christ with safety. We may have His presence to attend us at every step, but only by observing the conditions which He has Himself laid down. {LHU 144.5}
Religion must be made the great business of life. Everything else should be held subordinate to this. All our powers of soul, body, and spirit must be engaged in the Christian warfare. We must look to Christ for strength and grace, and we shall gain the victory as surely as Jesus did for us (Review and Herald, Nov. 15, 1887).
145
{LHU 144.6}


Before the world, God is developing us as living witnesses to what men and women may become through the grace of Christ. We are enjoined to strive for perfection of character. The divine Teacher says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). Would Christ tantalize us by requiring of us an impossibility? Never, never! What an honor He confers upon us in urging us to be holy in our sphere, as the Father is holy in His sphere! He can enable us to do this, for He declares, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:18). This unlimited power it is our privilege to claim. . . . {TMK 131.4}
God works with those who properly represent His character. Through them His will is done on earth as it is done in heaven. . . . {TMK 131.5}
It is our lifework to be reaching forward to the perfection of Christian character, striving constantly for conformity to God's will. Day by day we are to press upward, ever upward, until of us it can be said, "Ye are complete in him" (Co. 2:10). {TMK 131.6}

There is in the religious world a theory of sanctification which is false in itself, and dangerous in its influence. We have met many who claim to be sanctified; but in many cases those who profess sanctification do not possess the genuine article. Their sanctification consists in talk and will-worship. Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge in the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to his divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 2}
When persons claim that they are sanctified, it is sufficient evidence that they are far from being holy. They fail to see their own weakness and utter destitution. They look upon themselves as reflecting the image of Christ, because they have no true knowledge of him. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 3}

Cardw here I should have presented it this way to start it was my error in not doing it.

"God will honor and uphold every true-hearted, earnest soul who is seeking to walk before Him in the perfection of Christ's grace. He will never leave nor forsake one " So the ONLY real requirement is a "true-heart" PERIOD.

Everything else is just details. There are true hearted people that will be saved that believe ever idea put forward so far. There are true hearted people that are muslims that will be saved. There are true hearted people that are idol worshipers in the darkest jungles that will be saved. God is the perfect judge and will judge people on the knowledge they have. But in the end one thing is true. Those with a true heart that love God and surrender every thing to him will want to obey him. If you notice neither option I gave believes you will be lost if you stumble and sin but really have a true heart. They just explain why in different ways. Also neither believes you SHOULD sin. And all believe you should repent if you do sin. So don't make it harder than it is.

1. Give 100% to God hold nothing back. Give ALL to God no matter what the cost. Look at his love and sacrifice and fall on the Rock and be broken.

Thats it that one thing. Just really do that one thing above and you cant help but do everything else. And if you do that one thing you will no matter what have complete assurance of salvation.

I followed your link and I would like to point out the contradictions present in not only Ellen White but in many Christian writings on the topic of Salvation.



Note that we are required to tax all of our abilities and yet at the same time not depend on our abilities. Which is it? How do we know when our abilities have been fully taxed? When we die doing it?

Ellen White's writings are full of this stuff. And then to put extra pressure on this we have statements like this...



This is a classic Ellen White double speak. We can only accept a "free" gift if we Do God's will. The last time I checked free means we don't have to Do. Lets say I get a gift of $100 and it comes with a note that says its free if I come and sweep the driveway. That's wages, not a gift. That's manipulation, not love.

And then to further create fear we have statements like this...



This is clearly fear based. And to further complicate the confusion...



This is the unjust system of salvation presented in the writings of Ellen White. It is full of condemnation, fear, and double speak.

My true hearted belief and experience is that this system of thinking is harmful. And, yet, here is the deal breaker...



Since no one is clear on what God wants, this is pretty much impossible. This very thread demonstrates all the various claims on what God wants and each claims to be THE right answer.



This doesn't really say anything. It simply is using cliches. You assume that this has some sort of rational meaning, but when you get into the details, if there are any details, it becomes very complex and contradictory.

And if you don't agree then it must be pride or some fault of the person. No one considers that the statement is unreasonable.

This quote from Gerald Massey, a contemporary of Ellen White, summarizes this quite well



Or as Mitchell Logan writes in his book The Christian Mythology Unveiled in 1842

The following quotes really demonstrate how sick this stuff is...



This reveals the manipulative nature of Ellen White's writings quite clearly. First of all most people don't claim they are without sin or mistakes. So this is a straw man to begin with. And second, she creates a virtue out of low self esteem. It becomes a virtue to be brought down by our own weakness and defects. It is a virtue to become painfully aware of how terrible we are.

This is VERY sick stuff. It is soul damaging and creates people who have no confidence in any of their own perceptions. This creates people who become vulnerable to manipulation and control through authority and shame. And then she brings the impossible requirement of a perfect character, whatever that means, to load you down even more...



You have to achieve perfection without knowing if your are perfect. In fact you have to be painfully aware of your imperfection and hold this in emotional balance with the requirement of perfect obedience to God's law. No wonder Ellen White entered into madness before she died.

This stuff angers me because it creates such pain and suffering. It creates a mental prison without an exit. It is labeled as wisdom when it is one of the most cruel taskmasters conceivable. Clearly it is based on implied threat, fear, and manipulation. And unfortunately, much like a virus, it is self replicating.

Im sorry cardw. I cant give you faith in God and I cant give you converted heart. Thats God's job. And I have presented the truth. But its never going to be some kind of well math problem. So again I say surrender to God. When you do these other things will not be the issue they are now to you. Not in the same way.

If there is no criteria for determining if something is true or not, then there is no such thing as truth.

I realize that there are many things in this life that are mysteries, but you are claiming to know THE truth and that is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and clearly you do not have that.

I do have some experience with giving my whole life to God 100 percent. I read both the Bible and Ellen White very extensively and I lived my life as closely to those writings as possible. In my experience that only brought pain, fear, and sorrow. I also observed this fear and pain in many others who were very religious and committed to Jesus and whatever goes with that. I also observe a lot of fear and tension when I go to church.

All of this did not bring transformation or love. Now when I gave that idea up, transformation and love became available. Now I don't know what your life is like, but I know what my life was like following everything you have described.

The simple truth for me is that it doesn't work. And it wasn't from a lack of praying, trying, or studying. I haven't seen it do what it claims in other people either. What I do observer working is that people who have practical wisdom are much happier, more loving, more joyful, and deeply committed to their communities. And yet it is these people that Ellen White condemns because they haven't said the magic words, "I accept Jesus as my Savior."

It has become very plain to me that the modern teachings of Christianity are a complex myth maintained by a lot of magical thinking and provide very little in real life results.

What you describe is contradictory. If you did not have the peace and love that comes with conversion you were not converted sorry. And you can be 100% convinced something is the truth. You can read all the books. You can pray and go to church. You can do better in your life. You can proclaim the gospel. You can do all these things and more and still not be converted.

So let me make a suggestion. Instead of spending all this time on details that don't matter at all if you are not converted you need to go back to the very start.

"As your conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, you have seen something of the evil of sin, of its power, its guilt, its woe; and you look upon it with abhorrence. You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape, the more you realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him--what can you do to obtain it?

It is peace that you need--Heaven's forgiveness and peace and love in the soul. Money cannot buy it, intellect cannot procure it, wisdom cannot attain to it; you can never hope, by your own efforts, to secure it. But God offers it to you as a gift, "without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1. It is yours if you will but reach out your hand and grasp it. The Lord says, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Ezekiel 36:26. "

Now that's clincher for me. If these things don't provide evidence, then what does?

How do you know that you are converted?

This is really a mess because in actuality there is absolutely no evidence of conversion. All you have presented is simply word games and that's all it really is. This leaves anyone who has intellectual honesty unsure of their salvation.

It requires a lot of denial and mental gymnastics to make this work. You really have not provided any basis that any of this is truth. Nor have you provided any way to determine if it is true by reason or by evidence.

I happen to have a lot of evidence that this type of belief system is harmful and is based on mythology that has been simply made up. This evidence is available for anyone to read and grows more extensive every year as more and more ancient documents are discovered and translated.

AHHHHH ok now I get it. Why don't you put a little disclaimer on your posts for new people.

Thanks for the answers so far. I know this is a very controversial issue. Personally i think it is better to live from the heart than trying to live a perfect life because that would absorb valueble time that could be used for helping the poor and sick etc. Sulla you claim you know it all, but i think that a psychoanalysis would reveal that you point others to perfectness becuase you have put a lot of effort in trying to be perfect. In that way i can understand it that you get irritated that the gospel is simple. Of course all the 10 commandments can and should objectively be kept, but can you assure that you have no hidden sins? That would be impossible because God cannot help you overcome your sins in the flesh. For instance, when i see mariah carey i can t help feeling that i think she is very attractive. In a strict sense that would make me a sinner but even apostles struggled with these issues and asked God to free them from their miserable bodies. Only Jesus could keep the law perfectly, none of us can. What good does it do to spend all of your time trying to be perfect? Even gathering sticks on the sabbath is a breaking of the commandment. I think that because we cannot keep the law, the holy spirit guides us so that we have written Gods commandments in our hearts. I can see clearly that my flesh sins when i see attractive women but that does not come from the heart, and what does not come from the heart i think is not important. I think it is important to be loyal to our own concience. I have tried to be perfect but that is impossible and causes a lot of hate. When you live like that, because some prophet who borrowed extensively from other writers demands that, you become hatefull Christians who don t even have time to think about love for the grace that God has given us. For me, i keep the commandments to the best of my conscience and i rather spend my time in helping others than trying to be self-righteous. Maybe that will cost me my salvation, but so be it, i am not a robot. Everything that you do has to come from the heart i believe. In the end i don t think i ll make it, but at least i will be destroyed with a good consious like Arnold Schwarznegger in Terminator 2 when he dissapears in the lava.

Hmm dont remember saying that:)

I only posted some things Ellen White said. And I posted ones that are used by those you say you dont have to be perfect. I also said everything starts from a true heart and if you have this you have assurance of salvation.

Nope:) I have put effort in surrendering to God. As that is the trick everthing else will follow.

Nope not at all its very simple.

UMMM sorry no being tempted is NOT a sin. Giving in to temptation is. But yes we are naturaly sinful and that is are natural tendency.



John
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

"Christ should be our example in all things. He came from the realms of glory, not to show man a way by which he could be saved in transgression of the law, by which transgression Adam fell. But he took upon himself human nature, passed triumphantly over the ground where Adam stumbled, and redeemed that failure by his own perfect obedience of the law, and resistance to the temptations of Satan, which had compassed the fall of Adam. Christ in his own life has given us a proof that man can keep the law of God, and, through his merits be a final overcomer. {ST, July 18, 1878 par. 19}"

Hate only comes from trying to do these things of your own strenght and will. It can never happen period. You have to look to God and surrender day by day. Then the other will come. But you are confused on some things. Temptation is not sin. And we will always fill that we are sinners. You are SUPPOSED to fill like you are a sinner and unworthy as its not your merit that gets you to heaven. And the closer you get to God the more you will fill that general sense of sin. The difference is this. You should not have these big sins in your life you hold onto. For example if you are sleeping with your best friends wife. You know its wrong. But you cant keep doing it and say welllll its just my weak body. NO the truth would be God wants to help you overcome that sin but you are choosing to not let him help you. You are choosing the pleasure of sleeping with your best friends wife over GOD. Its not a mistake. Its not something you do without thinking. Its rebellion. But if you happen to see a half dressed very attractive woman walking down the road and feel lust for a moment then see whats happening and turn away - thats not sin. Thats just temptation.

Matthew
4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

There is no excuse for sin. {Mar 82.2}
Temptation is not sin. Jesus was holy and pure; yet He was tempted in all points as we are, but with a strength and power that man will never be called upon to endure. In His successful resistance He has left us a bright example, that we should follow in His steps. If we are self-confident or self-righteous we shall be left to fall under the power of temptation; but if we look to Jesus and trust in Him we call to our aid a power that has conquered the foe on the field of battle, and with every temptation He will make a way of escape. When Satan comes in like a flood, we must meet his temptations with the sword of the Spirit, and Jesus will be our helper and will lift up for us a standard against him. {Mar 82.3}
One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel.... The pains of duty and the pleasures of sin are the cords with which Satan binds men in his snares. Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}
The youth may have principles so firm that the most powerful temptations of Satan will not draw them away from their allegiance. {Mar 82.5}

well thank you for your answer. Never knew that temptation is not a sin itself. I never really made a difference between being tem