Whoa! I must be walking on water or on air!.....

'cuz I ain't making any claim to perfection...infact, I claim to be imperfect....

.......[looking at David] Hey, I heard that from here!

You are the one who responded to my post. My post stated that knowing if one is saved is not a simple matter. If you are actually talking to me, then this is the topic.

You began your reply to my statement that knowing if one is saved is not clear...



And then you ask...



You claim that its simple and then you present a complicated two step method with two options and instructions that I need to study a lot of material to understand it. That is classic double speak.



You have no idea how much I have studied this topic. And its an oxymoron to claim that something is simple and then state that I have to study it to understand it for myself. And I don't find it a waste of time talking with believers because I believe that these beliefs are harmful.

Sure glad to help with the link. Below is some more used for to promote one claim or another. I prefer to look at them together.

We are to live only one day at a time. We do not have to do the work of a life-time in a few hours. We need not look into the future with anxiety; for God has made it possible for us to be overcomers every day, and he will give needed grace, that we may be conquerors. I am glad we have only a day at a time in which to work.

Genuine sanctification is the work of a life-time. It is climbing the ladder round after round. {RH, December 1, 1885 par. 12}

Sanctification is the work of a life-time. First the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear, then the ripening and the harvest; for when the fruit is perfect, it is ready for the sickle.
245
{2SP 244.1}

None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete

Who is willing to take himself in hand? Who is willing to lay his finger upon his cherished idols of sin, and allow Christ to purify the temple by casting out the buyers and sellers? Who is prepared to allow Jesus to enter the soul and cleanse it from everything that tarnishes or corrupts? The standard is "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). God calls upon men and women to empty their hearts of self. Then His Spirit can find unobstructed entrance. Stop trying to do the work yourself. Ask God to work in and through you until the words of the apostle become yours, "I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me."--Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, pp. 366, 367. {YRP 51.3}


God will honor and uphold every true-hearted, earnest soul who is seeking to walk before Him in the perfection of Christ's grace. He will never leave nor forsake one


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humble, trembling soul. Shall we believe that He will work in our hearts? that if we allow Him to do so, He will make us pure and holy, by His rich grace qualifying us to be laborers together with Him? Can we with keen, sanctified perception appreciate the strength of His promises, and appropriate them, not because we are worthy, but because by living faith we claim the righteousness of Christ? {2SAT 210.4}

By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified. There is no power in law to save the transgressor of law. If man, after his transgression, could have been saved by his utmost energy to keep the law, then Jesus need not have died. Man could have stood on his own merits and said, "I am sinless." God will never bring down the law to man's standard and man can never lift himself up to answer to its claims of perfection. But Christ comes to our world and pays the sinner's debt, suffers the penalty for transgression of the law and satisfies justice, and now the sinner may claim


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the righteousness of Christ. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Romans 5:20. {6MR 141.2}
But grace does not come in to excuse the sinner in the continuance of sin. God's grace does not detract from the law, but establishes the law as changeless in its character. Here "mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Ps. 85:10. God looks upon His Son dying upon the cross and is satisfied, and Jesus is called "the Lord our righteousness." Then let the sinner by faith appropriate the merits of the blood of a crucified Redeemer to his own case--"the Lord my righteousness."--Ms 30, 1889, pp. 21, 22. ("Experience Following the Minneapolis Conference," June, 1889.) {6MR 142.1}
I am glad that a time has come when something will stir our people to investigate the points of our faith for themselves. . . . My cry has been: Investigate the Scriptures for yourselves, and know for yourselves what saith the Lord. No man is to be authority for us. If he has received his light from the Bible so may we also go to the same source for light and proof to substantiate the doctrines which we believe. The Scriptures teach that we should give a reason of the hope that is within us with meekness and fear.--Letter 7, 1888, pp. 3, 4. (To Brother Healey, December 9, 1888.)


Those who are truly seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. The more their minds dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern Its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own weakness and defects. Those who claim to be without sin give evidence that they are far from holy. It is because they have no true knowledge of Christ that they can look upon themselves as reflecting His image. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes.--The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, pp. 301, 302. {YRP 97.4}

God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1}


Sanctification is a daily work. Let none deceive themselves with the belief that God will pardon and bless them while they are trampling upon one of His requirements. The willful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Whatever may be the ecstasies of religious feeling, Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor Him. {LHU 144.3}
"To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." If we indulge anger, lust, covetousness, hatred, selfishness, or any other sin, we become servants of sin. "No man can serve two masters." If we serve sin, we cannot serve Christ. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" {LHU 144.4}
If we would develop a character which God can accept, we must form correct habits in our religious life. Daily prayer is as essential to growth in grace and even to spiritual life itself, as is temporal food to physical well-being. We should accustom ourselves to often lift the thoughts to God in prayer. If the mind wanders, we must bring it back; by persevering effort, habit will finally make it easy. We cannot for one moment separate ourselves from Christ with safety. We may have His presence to attend us at every step, but only by observing the conditions which He has Himself laid down. {LHU 144.5}
Religion must be made the great business of life. Everything else should be held subordinate to this. All our powers of soul, body, and spirit must be engaged in the Christian warfare. We must look to Christ for strength and grace, and we shall gain the victory as surely as Jesus did for us (Review and Herald, Nov. 15, 1887).
145
{LHU 144.6}


Before the world, God is developing us as living witnesses to what men and women may become through the grace of Christ. We are enjoined to strive for perfection of character. The divine Teacher says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). Would Christ tantalize us by requiring of us an impossibility? Never, never! What an honor He confers upon us in urging us to be holy in our sphere, as the Father is holy in His sphere! He can enable us to do this, for He declares, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:18). This unlimited power it is our privilege to claim. . . . {TMK 131.4}
God works with those who properly represent His character. Through them His will is done on earth as it is done in heaven. . . . {TMK 131.5}
It is our lifework to be reaching forward to the perfection of Christian character, striving constantly for conformity to God's will. Day by day we are to press upward, ever upward, until of us it can be said, "Ye are complete in him" (Co. 2:10). {TMK 131.6}

There is in the religious world a theory of sanctification which is false in itself, and dangerous in its influence. We have met many who claim to be sanctified; but in many cases those who profess sanctification do not possess the genuine article. Their sanctification consists in talk and will-worship. Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge in the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to his divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 2}
When persons claim that they are sanctified, it is sufficient evidence that they are far from being holy. They fail to see their own weakness and utter destitution. They look upon themselves as reflecting the image of Christ, because they have no true knowledge of him. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 3}

Cardw here I should have presented it this way to start it was my error in not doing it.

"God will honor and uphold every true-hearted, earnest soul who is seeking to walk before Him in the perfection of Christ's grace. He will never leave nor forsake one " So the ONLY real requirement is a "true-heart" PERIOD.

Everything else is just details. There are true hearted people that will be saved that believe ever idea put forward so far. There are true hearted people that are muslims that will be saved. There are true hearted people that are idol worshipers in the darkest jungles that will be saved. God is the perfect judge and will judge people on the knowledge they have. But in the end one thing is true. Those with a true heart that love God and surrender every thing to him will want to obey him. If you notice neither option I gave believes you will be lost if you stumble and sin but really have a true heart. They just explain why in different ways. Also neither believes you SHOULD sin. And all believe you should repent if you do sin. So don't make it harder than it is.

1. Give 100% to God hold nothing back. Give ALL to God no matter what the cost. Look at his love and sacrifice and fall on the Rock and be broken.

Thats it that one thing. Just really do that one thing above and you cant help but do everything else. And if you do that one thing you will no matter what have complete assurance of salvation.

I followed your link and I would like to point out the contradictions present in not only Ellen White but in many Christian writings on the topic of Salvation.



Note that we are required to tax all of our abilities and yet at the same time not depend on our abilities. Which is it? How do we know when our abilities have been fully taxed? When we die doing it?

Ellen White's writings are full of this stuff. And then to put extra pressure on this we have statements like this...



This is a classic Ellen White double speak. We can only accept a "free" gift if we Do God's will. The last time I checked free means we don't have to Do. Lets say I get a gift of $100 and it comes with a note that says its free if I come and sweep the driveway. That's wages, not a gift. That's manipulation, not love.

And then to further create fear we have statements like this...



This is clearly fear based. And to further complicate the confusion...



This is the unjust system of salvation presented in the writings of Ellen White. It is full of condemnation, fear, and double speak.

My true hearted belief and experience is that this system of thinking is harmful. And, yet, here is the deal breaker...



Since no one is clear on what God wants, this is pretty much impossible. This very thread demonstrates all the various claims on what God wants and each claims to be THE right answer.



This doesn't really say anything. It simply is using cliches. You assume that this has some sort of rational meaning, but when you get into the details, if there are any details, it becomes very complex and contradictory.

And if you don't agree then it must be pride or some fault of the person. No one considers that the statement is unreasonable.

This quote from Gerald Massey, a contemporary of Ellen White, summarizes this quite well



Or as Mitchell Logan writes in his book The Christian Mythology Unveiled in 1842

The following quotes really demonstrate how sick this stuff is...



This reveals the manipulative nature of Ellen White's writings quite clearly. First of all most people don't claim they are without sin or mistakes. So this is a straw man to begin with. And second, she creates a virtue out of low self esteem. It becomes a virtue to be brought down by our own weakness and defects. It is a virtue to become painfully aware of how terrible we are.

This is VERY sick stuff. It is soul damaging and creates people who have no confidence in any of their own perceptions. This creates people who become vulnerable to manipulation and control through authority and shame. And then she brings the impossible requirement of a perfect character, whatever that means, to load you down even more...



You have to achieve perfection without knowing if your are perfect. In fact you have to be painfully aware of your imperfection and hold this in emotional balance with the requirement of perfect obedience to God's law. No wonder Ellen White entered into madness before she died.

This stuff angers me because it creates such pain and suffering. It creates a mental prison without an exit. It is labeled as wisdom when it is one of the most cruel taskmasters conceivable. Clearly it is based on implied threat, fear, and manipulation. And unfortunately, much like a virus, it is self replicating.

Im sorry cardw. I cant give you faith in God and I cant give you converted heart. Thats God's job. And I have presented the truth. But its never going to be some kind of well math problem. So again I say surrender to God. When you do these other things will not be the issue they are now to you. Not in the same way.

If there is no criteria for determining if something is true or not, then there is no such thing as truth.

I realize that there are many things in this life that are mysteries, but you are claiming to know THE truth and that is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and clearly you do not have that.

I do have some experience with giving my whole life to God 100 percent. I read both the Bible and Ellen White very extensively and I lived my life as closely to those writings as possible. In my experience that only brought pain, fear, and sorrow. I also observed this fear and pain in many others who were very religious and committed to Jesus and whatever goes with that. I also observe a lot of fear and tension when I go to church.

All of this did not bring transformation or love. Now when I gave that idea up, transformation and love became available. Now I don't know what your life is like, but I know what my life was like following everything you have described.

The simple truth for me is that it doesn't work. And it wasn't from a lack of praying, trying, or studying. I haven't seen it do what it claims in other people either. What I do observer working is that people who have practical wisdom are much happier, more loving, more joyful, and deeply committed to their communities. And yet it is these people that Ellen White condemns because they haven't said the magic words, "I accept Jesus as my Savior."

It has become very plain to me that the modern teachings of Christianity are a complex myth maintained by a lot of magical thinking and provide very little in real life results.

What you describe is contradictory. If you did not have the peace and love that comes with conversion you were not converted sorry. And you can be 100% convinced something is the truth. You can read all the books. You can pray and go to church. You can do better in your life. You can proclaim the gospel. You can do all these things and more and still not be converted.

So let me make a suggestion. Instead of spending all this time on details that don't matter at all if you are not converted you need to go back to the very start.

"As your conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, you have seen something of the evil of sin, of its power, its guilt, its woe; and you look upon it with abhorrence. You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape, the more you realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him--what can you do to obtain it?

It is peace that you need--Heaven's forgiveness and peace and love in the soul. Money cannot buy it, intellect cannot procure it, wisdom cannot attain to it; you can never hope, by your own efforts, to secure it. But God offers it to you as a gift, "without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1. It is yours if you will but reach out your hand and grasp it. The Lord says, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Ezekiel 36:26. "