Now that's clincher for me. If these things don't provide evidence, then what does?

How do you know that you are converted?

This is really a mess because in actuality there is absolutely no evidence of conversion. All you have presented is simply word games and that's all it really is. This leaves anyone who has intellectual honesty unsure of their salvation.

It requires a lot of denial and mental gymnastics to make this work. You really have not provided any basis that any of this is truth. Nor have you provided any way to determine if it is true by reason or by evidence.

I happen to have a lot of evidence that this type of belief system is harmful and is based on mythology that has been simply made up. This evidence is available for anyone to read and grows more extensive every year as more and more ancient documents are discovered and translated.

AHHHHH ok now I get it. Why don't you put a little disclaimer on your posts for new people.

Thanks for the answers so far. I know this is a very controversial issue. Personally i think it is better to live from the heart than trying to live a perfect life because that would absorb valueble time that could be used for helping the poor and sick etc. Sulla you claim you know it all, but i think that a psychoanalysis would reveal that you point others to perfectness becuase you have put a lot of effort in trying to be perfect. In that way i can understand it that you get irritated that the gospel is simple. Of course all the 10 commandments can and should objectively be kept, but can you assure that you have no hidden sins? That would be impossible because God cannot help you overcome your sins in the flesh. For instance, when i see mariah carey i can t help feeling that i think she is very attractive. In a strict sense that would make me a sinner but even apostles struggled with these issues and asked God to free them from their miserable bodies. Only Jesus could keep the law perfectly, none of us can. What good does it do to spend all of your time trying to be perfect? Even gathering sticks on the sabbath is a breaking of the commandment. I think that because we cannot keep the law, the holy spirit guides us so that we have written Gods commandments in our hearts. I can see clearly that my flesh sins when i see attractive women but that does not come from the heart, and what does not come from the heart i think is not important. I think it is important to be loyal to our own concience. I have tried to be perfect but that is impossible and causes a lot of hate. When you live like that, because some prophet who borrowed extensively from other writers demands that, you become hatefull Christians who don t even have time to think about love for the grace that God has given us. For me, i keep the commandments to the best of my conscience and i rather spend my time in helping others than trying to be self-righteous. Maybe that will cost me my salvation, but so be it, i am not a robot. Everything that you do has to come from the heart i believe. In the end i don t think i ll make it, but at least i will be destroyed with a good consious like Arnold Schwarznegger in Terminator 2 when he dissapears in the lava.

Hmm dont remember saying that:)

I only posted some things Ellen White said. And I posted ones that are used by those you say you dont have to be perfect. I also said everything starts from a true heart and if you have this you have assurance of salvation.

Nope:) I have put effort in surrendering to God. As that is the trick everthing else will follow.

Nope not at all its very simple.

UMMM sorry no being tempted is NOT a sin. Giving in to temptation is. But yes we are naturaly sinful and that is are natural tendency.



John
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

"Christ should be our example in all things. He came from the realms of glory, not to show man a way by which he could be saved in transgression of the law, by which transgression Adam fell. But he took upon himself human nature, passed triumphantly over the ground where Adam stumbled, and redeemed that failure by his own perfect obedience of the law, and resistance to the temptations of Satan, which had compassed the fall of Adam. Christ in his own life has given us a proof that man can keep the law of God, and, through his merits be a final overcomer. {ST, July 18, 1878 par. 19}"

Hate only comes from trying to do these things of your own strenght and will. It can never happen period. You have to look to God and surrender day by day. Then the other will come. But you are confused on some things. Temptation is not sin. And we will always fill that we are sinners. You are SUPPOSED to fill like you are a sinner and unworthy as its not your merit that gets you to heaven. And the closer you get to God the more you will fill that general sense of sin. The difference is this. You should not have these big sins in your life you hold onto. For example if you are sleeping with your best friends wife. You know its wrong. But you cant keep doing it and say welllll its just my weak body. NO the truth would be God wants to help you overcome that sin but you are choosing to not let him help you. You are choosing the pleasure of sleeping with your best friends wife over GOD. Its not a mistake. Its not something you do without thinking. Its rebellion. But if you happen to see a half dressed very attractive woman walking down the road and feel lust for a moment then see whats happening and turn away - thats not sin. Thats just temptation.

Matthew
4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

There is no excuse for sin. {Mar 82.2}
Temptation is not sin. Jesus was holy and pure; yet He was tempted in all points as we are, but with a strength and power that man will never be called upon to endure. In His successful resistance He has left us a bright example, that we should follow in His steps. If we are self-confident or self-righteous we shall be left to fall under the power of temptation; but if we look to Jesus and trust in Him we call to our aid a power that has conquered the foe on the field of battle, and with every temptation He will make a way of escape. When Satan comes in like a flood, we must meet his temptations with the sword of the Spirit, and Jesus will be our helper and will lift up for us a standard against him. {Mar 82.3}
One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel.... The pains of duty and the pleasures of sin are the cords with which Satan binds men in his snares. Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}
The youth may have principles so firm that the most powerful temptations of Satan will not draw them away from their allegiance. {Mar 82.5}

well thank you for your answer. Never knew that temptation is not a sin itself. I never really made a difference between being tempted and just doing things because i thought it were both sins and because i can t help being tempted it wouldn t make a difference what i do. So thanks for clarifying this up. You know my last girlfriend always wanted to hear that she was the most beautiful woman in the world and i always lied because otherwise i would hurt her and she was very jealous. If i would have told her the truth, which i can understand is very unpleasant, then she would probably left me. She didn t make a difference between temptation and acts.

" Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}" I agree with this statement concerning the sabbath or murder etc. but strangely i don t have this feeling concerning lying in order to prevent a lot of pain. What should i do if i had committed sins before i knew anything Jesus but still have impact in these days?it is very hard to talk about that if you want to live a new life.

And why don't you provide a little evidence?

All you have is smoke and mirrors and more word games. You can go to link that says my blog and find out much more than any disclaimer.

Sulla, you offer this quote as a simple solution, but it is a contradiction to Ellen White's other sayings and this is why this stuff is so destructive. She says the following



This is what creates crazy people. This is deceptive and dishonest and is based on fear and manipulation. This is double speak and is the same type of brain washing described in George Orwell's book '1984.'

One simply has to read all the mental gymnastics required to make sure one is saved going on within this very thread to see how fear is played out with the lives of people who believe this stuff.

I will never be able to give 100% to God. I will fail. And failing it not giving 100%. So this approach to salvation will not work.

Look at this approach. Accept the free give of salvation. Then out of that assurance ... abide in Him. By abiding ... you will see the fruits of the Spirit in your life.

Not every one feels the same things are sin. This is something God convicts you of over time. He does not show you every sin and wrong habit at one time or you would be over whelmed. But its also your duty to grow, study and overcome. And as you do this you will become closer to God and as you become closer to God your character will reflect this.

And as for sins this might help....

In like manner you are a sinner. You cannot atone for your past sins; you cannot change your heart and make yourself holy. But God promises to do all this for you through Christ. You believe that promise. You confess your sins and give yourself to God. You will to serve Him. Just as surely as you do this, God will fulfill His word to you. If you believe the promise,--believe that you are forgiven and cleansed,--God supplies the fact; you are made whole, just as Christ gave the paralytic power to walk when the man believed that he was healed. It is so if you believe it. {SC 51.1}
Do not wait to feel that you are made whole, but say, "I believe it; it is so, not because I feel it, but because God has promised." {SC 51.2}

cardw its pointless me debating with you as you have an agenda. The truth is all there. You yourself have said you have read deeply of it. Not its up to the holy spirit to convict you of it. That is not my job and I cant do it. But I will keep praying for you and hope you only the best.