You're exactly right.

Later today I'll be posting additional Greek vocabulary on the topic of church officers, along with brief analysis of how these words, as well as the verses in which they occur, contribute to the discussion of women's role in the church.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

John317, do the Ante-Nicene Fathers shed any light on the application of such words as presbuteros and diakonos in the early Church? That is, do they indicate whether or not the the church offices described by those words are gender-neutral or not?

Dave

Well ... let me see .... How many weeks and how much pressure did it take for me to get the Greek business moved here? Do you think that you guys practice what you preach? Just checkin?

And with that snippet ... I will leave you to your bidding. It is obvious no matter what thread I go to ... he will not answer the questions. Greek or No Greek ... No answer.

I haven't done a concentrated study of those particular words as they are used among the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

The Western church from the first century through the fourth century didn't have any women serving as presbuteros (elders) or as bishops. Eastern Christianity (Syria, Chaldea, Persia) , however, especially, required the creation of a distinct female diaconal ministry in order to evangelize and care for women. The Didaskalia, for instance, says, "There are houses to which you [the bishop] cannot send a [male] deacon to the women, on account of the heathen, but you may send a deaconess."

The first duty of the deaconess was to assist the bishop in the baptism of women by anointing their bodies and ensuring that their nudity was not seen. The Didaskalia also says that the deaconess had the responsibility of teaching and instructing the new baptized women, apparently serving as a spiritual mother exhorting them to chastity. In addition, the deaconess was to visit Christian women in the homes of the heathen, to visit women who were sick, to bathe those women who were recovering from sickness, and to minister to women in need.

Here are some of the church writings from that period which mention women's role in the church:

Apostolic Church Order (Egypt-- 4th century)

Didaskalia Apostolorum (Syria-- c. 230 A. D.)

Apostolic Constitutions (Syria-- 4th century)

Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Syria-- 5th century)

Tertullian (second century) wrote, "It is not permitted to a woman to speak in church. Neither may she teach, baptize, offer, nor claim for herself any function proper to a man, least of all the sacerdotal office" (On the Veiling of Virgins 9.1).

It's very clear that this general prohibition didn't rest on some idea of a natural inferiority of women to men in intellect or in spiritual stature. John Chrysotom wrote that "in virtue women are often enough the instructors of men; while the latter wander about like jackdaws in dust and smoke, the former soar like eagles into higher spheres." (Epistle to Ephesians, Hom. 13.4).

Chrysostom made the following comment on Priscilla's teaching of Apollos in view of 1 Tim. 2: 12: "Paul does not exclude a woman's superiority, even when it involves teaching," when a man is an unbeliever and in error (Great Priscilla and Aquila 3).

Besides Turtullian and Chrysotom, other Ante-Nicene Fathers who wrote on the subject of women's role in the church were Origen (third century) and Epiphanius (fourth century). These both wrote against the Montanist prophetesses. Among Epiphanius' writings is the line, "Never from the beginning of the world has a woman served God as a priest."

Below is an example of the Didaskalia and of its references to bishops, presbyters, and deacons:


.... Do you therefore present your offerings to the bishop, either you yourselves, or through the deacons; and when he has received he will distribute them justly. For the bishop is well acquainted of those who are in distress, and dispenses and gives to each one as is fitting for him; so that one may not receive often in the same day or in the same week, and another receive not even a little. For whom the priest and steward of God knows to be the more in distress, him he succours according as he requires. And to those who invite widows to suppers let him send frequently her whom he knows to be in the more distress. [And again, if anyone gives bounties to widows, let him send [[90]] her the rather who is in want.] But let the portion of the pastor be separated and set apart for him according to rule at the suppers or the bounties, even though he be not present, in honour of Almighty God. But how much (soever) is given to one of the widows, let the double be given to each of the deacons in honour of Christ, (but) twice twofold to the leader for the glory of the Almighty. But if anyone wish to honour the presbyters also, let him give them a double (portion), as to the deacons; for they ought to be honoured as the Apostles, and as the counsellors of the bishop, and as the crown of the Church; for they are the moderators and councillors of the Church. But if there be also a lector, let him too receive with the presbyters. To every order, therefore, let everyone of the laity pay the honour which is befitting him, with gifts and presents and with the respect due to his worldly condition.

But let them have very free access to the deacons, and let them not be troubling the head at all times, but making known what they require through the ministers, that is through the deacons. For neither can any man approach the Lord God Almighty except through Christ. All things therefore that they desire to do, let them make known to the bishop through the deacons, and then do them. For neither formerly in the temple of the sanctuary was anything offered or done without the priest. And moreover, even the idol-temples of the impure and abhorred and reprobate heathen to this day imitate the sanctuary. Far indeed in comparison be the house of abomination from the sanctuary: nevertheless, even in (p. 38) their absurd rites they neither offer nor do anything without their unclean priest; but so they imagine, that the unclean priest is the mouthpiece of the stones; and they wait for what he will command them to do. And in all that they purpose to do they consult their unclean priest, and without him do nothing, And because they imagine that [[92]] what they do is acceptable, they honour him and worship him, as it were for the honour of the dumb stones that are fixed in the walls, and for the service of the foul and evil and cruel demons. If then those who are vain, and their customs false, and who have no hope, but are deceived by an empty hope, study and desire to imitate the sanctuary, and bestow all honour upon those who stand before their absurd idols: you who manifestly and openly believe in the truth, and hold fast to the hope that is not belied, and wait for the glorious promise which shall never pass away nor be made void -- why should not you rather honour the Lord God through those who preside over you?...

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Below are all of the occurrences of three additional words used to describe church officers in the New Testament. Those verses that refer to church officers are given in bold letters:

A) Proistamenoi-- Strong's # 4291: to set before; metaphorically, "to set over," "appoint with authority," "to preside," "govern," "superintend."

1) Romans 12: 8: Literally, "the one governing"; "he who leads" (NASB; NKJV); "the leader" (NIV); "he who gives aid" (RSV).

2) 1 Thess. 5: 12: "who are over you" (NIV; NKJV); "have charge of you" (NRSV); "have charge over you" (NASB); "exercising leadership."

3) 1 Tim. 3: 4: (Regarding overseers, or bishops): "manage" the home (NASB, RSV, NIV); "leading" (RYL).

4) 1 Tim. 3: 5: (Regarding overseers, or bishops): "manage" his family (NIV); "lead" (RYL).

5) 1 Tim. 3: 12: (Regarding deacons, masculine noun): "manage" children and household (NIV).

6) 1 Tim. 5: 17: (Masculine participle; Regarding elders): "direct" the affairs of the church; "rule" (RSV); "leading" (RYL).

7) Titus 3: 8: "to devote themselves" (NRSV; NIV); (Middle Voice); "to engage in" (NASB); "to be leading" in good works (RYL).

8) Titus 3: 14: "to devote themselves to" (NIV); "to be leading" in good works (RYL); "to maintain" good works (NKJV).

B) Kybernesis-- Strong's # 2941-- government, office of a governor or director.

1) 1 Cor. 12: 28: "governments" (KJV); "administrations" (NASB; NKJV); those with gifts of "administration" (NIV); "administrators" (RSV); "governings" (Green's Literal). (Fem. noun).

C) Heegeomai-- Strong's #2233-- to lead the way, to take the lead; to be chief, to preside, to govern, rule.

1) Matt. 2: 6: "governor" (KJV); "ruler" (NKJV).

2) Luke 22: 26: "he that is chief" (KJV); "the leader" (NASB; NRSV).

3) Acts 7: 10: "governor" over Egypt (KJV).

4) Acts 14: 12: "the chief speaker" (NKJV); literally, "leading" in speech.

5) Acts 15: 22: "chief" men (KJV); "leading" men (NASB).

6) Acts 26: 2: "think" (KJV); "consider" (NIV) "thought" (RYL).

7) 2 Cor. 9: 5: "thought" (KJV; NASB).

8) Phil. 2: 3: "let... esteem" (KJV); "regard" (NASB).

9) Phil. 2: 6: "thought" (KJV); "regard" (NASB).

10) Phil. 2: 25: "supposed" (KJV); "thought" (NASB).

11) Phil. 3: 7: "counted" (KJV; NASB).

12) Phil. 3: 8: "count" (KJV; NASB) (2 occurrences)

13) 1 Thess. 5: 13: "to esteem" (KJV; NASB).

14) 2 Thess. 3: 15: "count" (KJV); "regard" (NASB).

15) 1 Tim. 1: 12: "counted" (KJV); "considered" (NASB).

16) 1 Tim. 6: 1: "let... count" (KJV); "let... regard" (NASB).

17) Heb. 10: 29: "has counted" (KJV); "has regarded" (NASB).

18) Heb. 11: 11: "judged" (KJV); "considered" (NASB).

19) Heb. 11: 26: "esteeming" (KJV); "considering" (NASB).

20) Heb. 13: 7: "which have the rule over" (KJV); "led" (NASB); "leaders" (NRSV).

21) Heb. 13: 17: "that have the rule over" (KJV); "leaders (NASB; NRSV).

22) Heb. 13: 24: "that have the rule over (KJV); "leaders" (NIV; NASB; NRSV).

23) James 1: 2: "count" (KJV); "consider" (NASB).

24) 2 Peter 1: 13: "think" (KJV); "consider" (NASB).

25) 2 Peter 2: 13: "that count" (KJV); "count" (NASB).

26) 2 Peter 3: 9: "count" (KJV; NASB).

27) 2 Peter 3: 15: "account" (KJV); "regard" (NASB).

Thank-you, John317, for your post re Ante-Nicene Fathers. Very helpful information. When there is a question about the intent of a NT writer, and an issue is raised about Greek words, a survey of the practice of the church at or around the time can be very illuminating as to the word meaning and application by the church. Once again, personally I don't have an issue either way, but I AM interested in the process of discovery.

Dave

After I finish posting all the verses and words in the NT dealing with church officers, and particularly those that relate to women's role in the church, I'll write more on the way the Ante-Nicene Fathers as well as other early Christians used such words as presbuteros and diakonos.

A question I would now like to throw out, is, what is the meaning of "head" [Kephalee] at Ephesians 5:23 and 1 Cor. 11: 3? At issue is whether it means "authority over" or "source" or "origin"? Do you or any others have an opinion on this, based on a close study of the text and on how it is used there and elsewhere?

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

So far, the following verses are the ones which some members of CA have pointed to as offering the best evidence that there were female elders or pastors or leaders in the NT church:

1) 1 Tim. 3: 11-- gunaikas-- referring to wives of deacons or possibly deaconesses; most probably the wives.

2) Romans 16: 1-- diakonos-- servant or deaconess. Even if translated as "minister", it does not necessarily mean "pastor." We need to examine the role and qualifications of the NT deacon, and also examine all the uses of diakonos in the NT. All of the NT uses of the verb, diakoneo, may be found on post #151534, 1/12/08; and all the uses of the noun, diakonos, may be found on post #151673, 1/13/08.

3) 1 Tim 5: 2-- presbutera (Fem): All 66 translations that I've examined in English have "older women." All Greek-English lexicons and authorities agree with that translation of 1 Tim. 5: 2.

4) Titus 2: 3-- presbutis-- "an aged woman." Translated here as "aged women," "elder women" or "older women."

5) Romans 16: 3-- sunergous-- co-worker or fellow worker. Compare its use at 1 Thess. 3: 2.

6) Romans 16: 7-- Junias-- noted or notable among the apostles.

7) Acts 9: 36-- Dorcus, a female disciple [matheetria].

Are there other verses in the NT that anyone believes should be considered as providing evidence that women were officers in the early church?

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Am not at the office right now. Had a full day, leading out in a natural healing symposium which went extremely well, then a Bible study this evening. Will follow up on this w/Kittel, L-N, BAGD and others. (By the way, the latest edition of BAGD is now, I think, 'BGD.' It has been a long, long time since it started out as Arndt & Gingrich (A & G).

Dave

QR frame:

Well, quickly skimming these recent posts... I was first inclined to respond to the queries directed to me; however, there appears the desire to put the kibosh on anything less than grammatical Greek, supposedly inclusive of the Classical, Attic, koine, or other... Therefore,

I’ll leave the thread to its constituent “peers”.

I leave with a Parthian shot: supposedly, the positions (shibboleths, dogmas, or other) being defended reflect those of the .Org. That, being the case – let me ask of those claiming NTestamental authority,

Where are the bishops and the priests within the .Org? Not Biblical? c’mon... (no semantical rubric of elder/bishop accepted

Further,

let me ask, Was the Great Commission given only to the disciples to whom Jesus Christ spoke? or, was it meant to apply to all those who followed afterwards? And,

to make another a disciple requires shepherding or pastoring, does it not? mebbe, the Great Commission did not include women? Surely,

the Great Commission was not a quasi-Misogynous Act?