The issue of origins can get very passionate. I have noticed that it seems those participating in origin discussions get as emotional and upset as those participating in political discussions. People start taking things personally and start lashing out at others personally. That can be very ugly.

I love studying the topic of origins. I watch hours of Discovery, PBS and Science television. My library is full with creation science books. I subscribe to creation science journals. I find the topic fascinating. I do not pretend to know where we came from or how the universe began. I wasn't there. I know what the Bible says about it. I choose to believe the Bible. But I wasn't there. I don't know for a fact the Bible's account is true.

I respect people that believe differently than I do. I believe the way I do because I choose to place my faith in the traditional, sola scriptura, reading of the Bible. I respect others that decide to understand the Bible in another light. When I disagree with them, it is not anything personal. My disagreement is not an insult. It is simply a difference of opinion.

I am glad Stan as opened this forum again. I look forward to a healthy exchange of ideas here. I will be posting threads here whenever I read an interesting article or see a good program on TV.

We all know that God made the heavens and the earth. But did He make them out of all new material or from elements gathered from the space around Him? I think this is where we get the zillion yo earth vs 6,000 yo earth controversy.

I know things tend to get a might scientific in here and thats when I will drop out.

I don't approach the issue from a scientific aspect. I am not a scientist. I have seen those with a scientific mind really bully others by insulting their intelligence and lording their lack of scientific knowledge over them. I approach it from a philosophical aspect.

There are several philosophical ways to approach origins. Even within the realm of science there are more than one philosophical view. Much of the "evidence" that we have is understood in the light of our philosophical view. Here are a few of the philosophical views out there:

Natural Science: All observable phenomenon has a natural explanation. There is no supernatural power at work and never has been.

Intelligent Design: Life and the universe are too complex to exist without an intelligent designer. This is not a Christian or religious philosophy.

Young Universe Biblical Creationism: The universe and all that is in it was created by God approximately six to ten thousand years ago. God created it ex nihilo.

Theistic Evolution: God used the process of evolution and death to create the universe and all that is in it. To be understood, the Bible must be interpreted in light of what is observable in nature.

Old Universe, Young-Life-On-Earth Biblical Creationism: God created the universe, including Earth, long before the six day creation week of Genesis and did so ex nihilo. Life on Earth was created about six to ten thousand years ago during the creation week of Genesis.

Each person embracing these philosophies can provide "evidence" why they believe what they believe. So many have concluded the issue isn't about the "evidence" as much as it is about the philosophy of the observer.

It is convenient and to some quite satisfactory to say "God" made it all. But the ultimate origin question then becomes "where did God come from"?

mel

All origin philosophies end with an ultimate question mark. There is no getting away from that. Creationists (of most all varieties) believe in an eternal god. Naturalists believe in eternal matter. The ultimate question for naturalists is where did the electrons, protons and neutrons that make up the elements come from.

Does God have to come from anywhere?

What about God being the vastness of the universe? He is All and has always been. No begining, no end.

Men have been looking out into space since the begining. First with eyes, then with lens. But there was always more beyond what could be seen. So man made huge telescopes. But still there was more beyond. So man went into space to look. And still there was more. Man keeps looking for the end. But there is no end bcause God has no end.

It reminds me of the discussion I had with a student many years ago..."I don't get it" was her remark " Where did God come from, how did it all begin?" My answer was, "Do you believe that when Crrist comes we will go home to live with Him forever......and ever.... world without end?" She said, " Sure "... "Well then, sez I, if there is to be no end why does there have to be a beginning?"

you be one smart dude

Not quite - most subscribe to a 'Big Bang' model which says there was nothing before the beginning of the universe, roughly 14 billion years ago. As humorist Terry Pratchett has summarised this view 'In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded'.

So basically even naturalists are thrown back onto the question of 'What (or Who) caused the Big Bang?'

And +1 to Shane's opening post on discussing these important issues with empathy, humility and respect. He's a great example in these virtues for all of us.