Rush4hire: Sadly you have taken what I was saying out of context. You take part of my statement and cut it off from the rest of the statement and build new arguments around my statement which is not what I was saying. For example, you quoted my "... even then God did not give up on him" and infer that I do not believe that God ever gives up on people. and then you show that yes, there is a time where God does give up. My point is that before giving up God does all he can do without forcing the will, and Saul just kept refusing and hardening under all that God was doing to try to help him.

A second example is you took my "they can sleep until they are resurected so they can enjoy all we can do in our body again" Where do you get the idea that I'm saying that there is such a thing as enjoyment in the sleep of death? I believe exactly what you wrote in your comment.

As for the connection between Saul and Gideon: The two stories very much overlap in style, literary structure and in the exact geographic locations of things happening. Did the Bible writer think this was merely an unrelated coincidence? If all these coincidences were pointed out to the Bible writer do you think that the writer would have fallen down laughing saying "I never realized this when I was writing the text, it's so funny how much my story sounds like Gideons right down to the geography, I had no idea that I was writing so close to that story since these stories were unrelated."

BobRyan The message that Saul expirenced (nomatter who was in that meeting) was an emphesses on God's word not to consult the dead on behalf of the living: It reenforces the teachings that 1.) the dead are sleeping so what help can they give. Even prophets can only repeat the message they gave in their lifetime that you can turn to their written record for. They are not in some position to give anything new, so just turn to what they wrote when they were alive. and 2.) Those who try to consult the dead are as good as dead and headded on the express track towards death. And instead of contradicting God's word it emphessises it saying that even if God were to wake up someone from the dead the message is the same, the dead are sleeping and have no speical insight to seek out and that those who consult the dead are as good as dead. God is NOT violating his word. It's only violating your traditions of interpetation. This can be akin to where a parent gives a child a warning. The child tries to sneek around and do what the parent warned, so the parent says "Ok, let me show you why I gave this warning." and shows the child that the parent knows what they are talking about, and dramaticaly reenforces the warning. A parent grabbing a match book from the children and lighting a match showing what the fire can do is not one of the children having control over the matches and does not violate the parents warning not to play with matches.

I agree with you. And its worth as much as anybody else's.

pk

Dear Rush. 50-forum points awarded for this great line !

It's possible that on that particular occasion, there was an angel of God, having supplanted the expected evil angel, and doing what the evil angel usually does in imitating the dead. Not that that's what I believe happened, but it's the next possibility that you could suggest. But to say that's actually Saul's spirit. That does not work. What people call spirit manifestations are always the work of the Devil. But I already said that it's possible God's angel did this one, which would have been the rare exception to the rule, that doesn't even need to be mentioned in order to make a statement like that. Like "In Adam all die". But all didn't die, like Elijah and Enoch. Well of course if evil angels can transform themselves into angels of light, then the reverse is possible. Like that lying spirit from the Lord, that other story, that I don't want to find right now.





If God didn't give up on Saul, then why didn't He answer Saul?

1 Sam. 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Now we have another contradiction. Such contradictions hurt the power of the Scriptures to convert the soul. But it does fit the traditional, emotional teaching that "God never gives up on people". Which is not Biblical, and causes people to make the fatal mistake of putting their salvation off until they are just about to die, which really never works.

See what I'm saying?

But, you could say, Saul gave up on God. He just refused to come to terms with what he knew to be the will of God, and became a hardened murderer. Hardened murderers do not hear the Holy Ghost, so God knew if He would have answered Saul, it would have been a complete waste. He wouldn't have listened just as he didn't listen to what Samuel said. Just as Pharaoh didn't listen to Moses.





Here's my concern, if I didn't make it plain enough.



This seems to suggest that Gideon wanting a sign was the like "the Jews seek a sign", and "a perverse and adulterous generation seeketh a sign". That was a different kind of thing. Gideon needing a sign was not indicative of a lack of trust in God, and cannot be compared at all with those verses.

And Saul wasn't "seeking a sign". He wanted counsel. The problem was not "seeking a sign", but he probably wouldn't have listened to what the counsel he Lord had. He was completely outside of the plainly revealed will of God. And he didn't want to do what he knew God wanted him to do. How's God then going to give Saul further instructions. We've been over this already.




I'm not saying what I think you believe. I'm just saying all the round-about talk is not necessary to tell people what is really going on.



It looks like we have alot of activities going on in Sheol, but they are not the kind of things you can do with a body. So not having a body is pretty boring. I know some evangelicals teach like this.

Not having a body is nothing. It's non-existence, except in the mind of God who calls your future existence as though it where. Why not just point out the fact that when the dead are viewed talking, it's just prophetic, like when God says:

Gen. 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

That's the same as here:

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

This is symbolic, not literal. The concept of life after death without a body is a SATANIC delusion that denies and supplants the resurrection of Christ. That's how you explain it. Build from there.

It's too simple. Making things too complicated does nothing good for anyone. Just drive the nail home. Don't start decorating the nail.

And flirting with the Evangelicals' way of thinking is dangerous. They are sell-outs to the Papacy, in spite of all the innocent blood she continues to drink.

Good post Rush4hire, I like it. It's much better than the previous post!

1. No, I am not seeing Gideon's signs as "an evil and perverse generation require a sign" Both Gideon and Saul received signs early in their expirence. However when he ended up with only 300 men he found that even the positive signs did not make him feel better, and he grew into trusting in God instead of the signs. Saul got sign after sign and kept sitting around looking for signs. Once while sitting around asking for signs his son attacked the enemy single handed which lead to a victory. God wanted Saul to, like Gideon, grow beyond signs. The time was coming where God gave sign after sign and Saul was not growing beyond signs and it was time for Saul to look to the word (the words from his expirence with Samuel, the geographic location of the story of Gideon) and for God's spirit to push Saul, like last day events will push mankind, into making a final decision for or against Christ. (I'm afraid to say this and this may be an unwise statement, but archaeologist point out that one of the ways ancient people tried to contact the dead was put out wool expecting the spirits of the dead to either make it wet or dry to answer the medium's questions)

2. No I do not see this as Saumel's spirit or soul etc. It was either a demon, human trickery or God actually waking up Samuel for a few minutes to show the anointed leader of God's special choosen people that it is useless to consult the dead. (By the way, I am not very original, but reflect different ideas presened as possibilities by official adventist educators from the conservative to moderat wings, ideas that they are atleast able to give stong enough arguments for it to be "worthy of consideration" and still be considered in full standing.) I just want to let us know that there are three possibilites that our educators consider as possible and that if it was Samuel that it does not contradict what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead. Personally, I'm fairly nuteral as to which one of the three it may be. What does consern me is that often if something flys in the face of our tradition, too often instead of seeing how it fits the bigger picture of our landmarks, too many of us end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I am more conserned with us being a bit hesatent about giving up our landmarks if there is something that rubs the wrong way to our tradition and smugness.

3. Yes, I understand the verses about missing the body, self examination and raising up to taunt a great king who comes into sheol to point out that they have become as weak as everyone else in Sheol as symbolic and these verses are not to be believed literally. My point is that the Bible does picture the dead, good and bad, saved and lost, as sleeping in Sheol. It was asked how could Saul join Samuel since one was saved and the other lost and reading into the text the false doctrine about going to heaven or hell at death and was asking if the indication would be that the lost Saul was to go to heaven and join Samuel in heaven, and if this is not what was indicated what was indicated and I wanted to point out that what the ancient world would haved inferred was not going to heaven or hell but that both would be sleeping in Sheol. The Bible writer and reader would have understood, in both the literal and symbolic texts, that in death both the saved and the lost would be together in the sleep of the grave, or the sleep of Sheol. (by the way, for Saul to get this warning, we either have Satan the father of lies trying to discurage Saul and thus Saul could turn to God and make this warning a lie; or if it was Samuel simply applying his teaching that whoever seeks the dead is as good as dead and will thus die, we find again the warnings from God are conditional and given with the hopes that we change our ways, thus Saul had a way out either way, but Saul choose not to take the way out nor to trust in God.)

I hope this helps.

I believe you already said that you think this was a demon and a witch in the case of the witch of Endore.

1. Are you arguing that the devil has good doctrine when it comes to the state of the dead?

2. You insert into the story "if God were to bring up" -- but the story never says "God brought up" anything -- the one with the power in the story is the witch. (And as the servant of satan -- by implication then - Satan).

3. IN the story the only action we see God taking is that of saying that NO prophet is allowed to Saul. Saul and the servant of satan are trying to get around God's prohibition by using an avenue totally under Satan's power.

4. There is nothing in the story where Samuel is said to actually appear to Saul and say "because you woke me up you must die".

All we have is the witch claiming the magic power to see Samuel -- not Saul.




I agree that this example of a witch and a demon fooling Saul is a good example of God showing us WHY we says that the "living should not consult the dead on behalf of the living" Is 8:19.

God is showing that the avenue in question -- belongs to Satan.

1Chron 10:13-14



It would do no good to give the child candy matches as if they were real to teach that if you eat a match -- it always tastes good. To learn the lesson of going to a witch and to satan and calling up a demon -- is to be deceived.

Notice that in 2Thess 2 - "He turned them over to strong deception so that they might perish who did not receive a love of the truth".

OT - NT -- no change.

Bob

I get what you're saying about "growing beyond signs". I just don't want to be too simplistic about the "signs" issue. We must see the difference between the signs God gives and the signs fallen man wants God to give:

Luke 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: ... and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.

You could say that Herod was like Saul. God didn't answer Saul, and Jesus didn't answer Herod. Saul was trying to murder David and had murdered the priests. Herod had murdered John the Baptist. They where both hardened so that nothing God would have said to them would have done any good.

And Herod wanted a sign. Why?

God gives signs to strengthen people's faith. But those who have no faith will not be strengthened, but hardened.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But those that did have faith, (heard Moses and the prophets), where persuaded:

John 11:43 ..he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes...
11:45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

And Jesus said he was glad for the opportunity to raise the dead, for it would strengthen their faith:

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

Some where persuaded, and some where not:

John 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

So, such signs are good for those that have faith, but to those who are too far gone, the signs will only harden them, and even cause them to form a conspiracy to commit murder.

I've already discussed how they wanted Jesus to come down from the cross that they should believe.

To put it in modern context, God has given us so many signs. We have been showing the world that the signs of the times which show Jesus is coming soon. What use would it be to ask for a sign from God whether or not He wants us to do the Lord's work in bringing the 3rd angel's message to a loud cry. We should know that's what God wants us to do. And we have too many signs that we can not deny. We have no excuse. We can't say we don't know what God wants us to do because He hasn't given us enough signs. He has.

So why would the Jews be justified for asking a sign from Jesus to know whether they should repent of their sins or not?

They had signs:

-- All the miracles of Jesus.
-- Jesus' zeal for the Law.
-- The zeal for the house of God.
-- The prophecies fulfilled.
-- The call to repentance and reformation.

At the very least God was raising up a prophet. When God raises up a prophet, in this case 2 prophets, why would you need a sign to know that what is expected of you is to go along with the reformation they are bringing from God, and not to rebel against it. They could have known this, just by studying the history of Israel in the Scriptures.

------

And I still say what Saul wanted at this point was counsel concerning war. That was normal. But he wanted the wrong kind of counsel. He had already left the path of God's counsel and wanted God to make him a new path instead of humbling himself and finding his way back to that original path.

Which might have been done, as we see Ahab humbling himself after having done things as bad as Saul:

1 Kings 21:27 ..when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.
21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,
21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days...

------



Another very good point. I've wanted to tell you, BobRyan, how much I'm encouraged by all your good points, but I've been focused on other things.



This is another thing that needs to be pointed out, and I've been trying to make people more aware of this, how people are sealed in condemnation by strong delusion, how they are reserved for judgment:

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to ..... reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

That's what strong delusion does. It reserves the wicked unto the day of judgment.

This is to warn people that they should examine themselves to see if they are willing to believe a lie or not. Not that believing a lie is always the same as being willing to believe a lie. This is like those who "willingly are ignorant", (2 Peter 3:5).

But this is the kind of thing we need to start a new topic about.

Rush4hire: Exactly!

The living soul exists only when the breath of life and the body are united. Once the breath of life is not in the body, the living soul becomes a dead soul, or dead body.

The Bible doesn't call it "soul sleep," of course. It simply says that the dead are "asleep" in their graves. We have an unconscious sleep, totally unaware of the passage of time.

When the person dies, we might think of the breath of life as similar to electricity in a light bulb. At the moment the switch is pulled, and the light bulb goes out, where does the electricity go? Just as the electricity apart from a bulb is useless, so the breath of life is useless and has no consciousness apart from the entire person.

The soul ceases to exist between death and the resurrection, although we do exist in the mind of God because he remember us and knows how to put us back together again when that time arrives.

Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are then unnable to kill the soul rather fear him who can DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

The soul EXISTS at the point of death - but it is dormant.

John 11 "LAZARUS SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM.. Lazarus is DEAD"
1Thess 4 "regarding those who have FALLEN ASLEEP"

Eccl 12:7 the "spirit returns to God who gave it" this is in essence the soul that is preserved from death to resurrection - but in a dormant (sleep) not destroyed, not killed as Christ points out in Matt 10:28.

in Christ,

Bob