#162033 - 03/18/08 07:30 PM
Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 126
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CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY – A HALL OF ADVOCATES
What happens with man when, as he dies, cuts definitively contact with the world? Does he go to heaven to enjoy immediately an assured immortality? Does he remain during a period of waiting time somewhere in the universe? Is he thrown into an eternally burning hell to suffer indescribable agonies throughout eternity?
There are bishops, pastors, Bible translators, theologians and intellectuals and many others throughout the centuries who, searching for answers in the vast biblical repertoire, advocate the condition of unconsciousness during death and the concession of immortality as a faith reward, granted exclusively through Christ at the resurrection of God’s elects. These scholars belong to varied denominations, but they have in common the accurate analysis of the Bible texts that reveal the condition of man in death. They showed disposition to accept this revelation as sufficient in this important theological subject. Following are the statements on this theme drawn from divers sources.
Nicolas, Greek bishop, (2nd Century AD):
“When any created being is eternal, that is not by himself, nor in himself, nor to himself, but by God’s goodness; for everything that is made and created has a beginning and maintains its existence solely through the Creator’s goodness.” – Quoted in Compendium of the History of Doctrines, vol. 2, pp. 4 e 5.
The Waldenses (15th Century) contested the doctrine of purgatory and intercession of the saints, teaching in their catechism of instruction to the young people that man is only “mortal”. - Moreland, The History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of the Piedmont, 1658, p. 75.
Pietro Poponatius, of Mantua, noted Italian professor and leader among the Averrorists (who denied the immortality of the soul), issued a book in opposition of Pope Leo X’s bull that declared: “We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal” (quoted by H. J. Schroeder, Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils, 1937, pp. 483, 487—as quoted in Questions on Doctrines, p. 569). As a result of his book, widely read, especially in Italian universities, he was haled before the Inquisition and his book publicly burned in Venice.
Martin Luther (1493-1546), German reformer and Bible translator:
In his 1520 Defence with 41 propositions, Luther refers to the belief of immortality of the soul, along other papal teachings, as “monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals (Proposition 27).
“Salomon iudgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but wen they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute”. – An Exposition of Solomon’s Book, Called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, fl. 151 v.
“But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God’s son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus’ bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life.”- Works of Luther, vol. 6, pp. 287 e 288.
William Tyndale (1484-1536), English Bible translator and martyr:
“And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection. . . . And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?”
“I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection? – An Answer to Sir Thomas More’s Dialogue, liv. 4, cap. 4, pp. 180 e 181.
John Milton (1608-1674), considered the greatest of the sacred poets, Latin secretary of Cromwell:
“Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life. . . . The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.” – Treatise of Christian Doctrine, vol. 1, cap. 13.
William E. Gladstone (1809-1898), British prime minister and theologian
“Another consideration of the highest importance is that the natural immortality of the soul is a doctrine wholly unknown to the Holy Scriptures, and standing on no higher plane than that of an ingeniously sustained, but gravely and formidably contested, philosophical opinion.” – Studies Subsidiary to the Works of Bishop Butler (1896 ed.), p. 197.
“The character of the Almighty is rendered liable to charges which cannot be repelled so long as the idea remains that there may by His ordinance be such a thing as never-ending punishment, but that it will have been sufficiently vindicated at the bar of human judgment, so soon as it has been established and allowed that punishment, whatever else it may be, cannot be never-ending.” – Ibid. , p. 241.
Edward White (1819-1887), congregational, president of the Congregationalist Union:
“I steadfastly maintain, after forty years of study of the matter, that it is the notion of the infliction of a torment in body and soul that shall be absolutely endless, which alone gives a foot of standing ground to Ingersoll in America, or Bradlaugh in England [both militant atheists]. I believe more firmly than ever that it is a doctrine as contrary to every line of the Bible as it is contrary to every moral instinct of humanity.” – Introduction to the book The Unspeakable Gift, by J. H. Pettingell, p. 22.
J. Agar Beet (1840-1924), Wesleyan professor:
“The following pages are . . . a protest against a doctrine which, during long centuries, has been almost universally accepted as divine truth taught in the Bible, but which seems to me altogether alien to it in both phrase and thought, and derived only from Greek Philosophy. Until recent times, this alien doctrine has been comparatively harmless. But, as I have here shown, it is now producing most serious results. . . .
“They who claim for their teaching the authority of God must prove that it comes from Him. Such proof in this case, I have never seen.” – The Immortality of Soul, 5th ed., 1902, Preface.
Franz Deliztsch (1813-1890), Hebraist, professor, Rostock, Erlangen, Leipsic.
“There is nothing in all the Bible which implies a native immortality.” (Comment on Gen. 3:22).
“From the Biblical point of view the soul can be put to death, it is mortal.” (Comment on Num. 23:10). – A New Commentary on Genesis.
George Dana Boardman (1828-1903), Baptist pastor, founder of the Boardman Foundation of Christian Ethics, University of Pennsylvania:
“Not a single passage of Holy Writ, from Genesis to Revelation, teaches, so far as I am aware, the doctrine of Man’s natural immortality. On the other hand, Holy Writ emphatically declares that God only hath immortality (1 Tim. 6:16): that is to say: God alone is naturally, inherently, in His own essence and nature, immortal.” – Studies in the Creative Week, pp. 215 e 216.
F. R. Weymouth (1822-1902), translator of New Testament in Modern Speech:
“My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean ‘maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence’.”– Quoted by Edward White in Life in Christ (1878), p. 365.
“The use in the N.T. of such words as ‘death,’ ‘destruction,’ ‘fire,’ ‘perish,’ to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably, bad.” (Comment on Hebrews 9:28) – New Testament in Modern Speech.
William Temple (1881-1944), Late Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of Great Britain:
“[The] doctrine of the future life [will] involve our first disentangling the authentic teaching of the classical Scriptures from accretions which very quickly began to obscure this.” – Nature, Man and God, p. 460.
Martin J. Heinecken, professor of systematic theology, Lutheran Theological Seminary, Philadelphia:
“In the Biblical account of creation we are told that God formed man of the dust and of the earth, and that he then breathed into his nostrils and man became a living soul. This is usually interpreted to mean that God made a soul, which is the real person, and that he then gave this soul a temporary home in a body, made of the dust of the earth. But this is a false dualism. . . . Man must be considered a unity.” – Basic Christian Teachings, pp. 36 e 37.
Emil Brunner (1889-1966), professor of systematic theology and practical theology, Zurich, guest professor at Princeton, and International Christian University of Tokyo.
“The opinion that we men are immortal because our soul is of an indestructible, because divine, essence is, once for all, irreconcilable with the Biblical view of God and man. . . . The philosophical belief in immortality is like an echo, both reproducing and falsifying the primal Word of this divine Creator. It is false because it does not take into account the real loss of this original destiny through sin.” – Eternal Hope, pp. 105, 106 e 107.
Dr. Basil F. C. Atkinson, under-librarian of Cambridge University:
“The breath of life was not breathed into man’s heart, but into his nostrils. It involved physical life. Throughout the Bible man, apart from Christ, is conceived of as made of dust and ashes, a physical creature, to whom is lent by god a principle of life. The Greek thinkers tended to think of man as an immortal soul imprisoned in a body. This emphasis is the opposite to that of the Bible, but has found a wide place in Christian thought.” – The Pocket Commentary of the Bible, Part 1, Book of Genesis, p. 32.
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#162034 - 03/18/08 07:36 PM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: A_G_Brito]
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 126
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10 TOPICS THAT DEMONSTRATE THE SUPERIORITY OF THE WHOLISTIC VIEW OF HUMAN NATURE OVER THE DUALISTIC VIEW
The dualistic view of the human nature and destiny (belief in the immortality of the soul) cannot be considered superior in any way to the holistic understanding of these themes. We would challenge the advocates of that position to present what superior aspects they could find in their understanding of the question in comparison with the enumeration that we present below of items in which one can perceive the indisputable superiority of the holistic view over the understanding of immortality of the soul.
1.) Much more Christ-centered. The holistic understanding stresses that only in Christ we have hope of obtaining immortality, at the resurrection of the just ones, not being something we already possess inherently in the form of an immortal soul. “He who has the Son has the life” (cf. John 5:28, 29; 1 John 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54).
2.) Greater foundation on the basic doctrine of righteousness by faith. There is only one who is good, Jesus said (see Mat. 19:17). In an absolute sense only God is just, while we are infinitely far from possessing justice of our own. The holistic vision highlights that as we have no justice in ourselves by which to appear before the Supreme Judge to obtain approval (see Isaiah 64:6), we also don’t have inherently the gift of immortality, which only belongs to God (1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16) and is granted to us through the gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 1:10).
3.) Greater emphasis and valuation of the theme of Christ’s advent. For those who believe in the immortality of the soul the theme of Christ’s second coming doesn’t receive the same importance, for, in practical terms, such event becomes irrelevant, since the eternal inheritance occurs at death. This explains the emphasis on the second advent and the conclusion of the evangelization work among Seventh-day Adventists by every means possible (radio, TV, literature, personal witnessing, public lectures, health and social assistance). The fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 is the great preoccupation and motivation of the SDA Church, which has one of the largest number of penetrated lands and proportionally also one of the largest number of missionaries among all those who are engaged in the task of world evangelization.
4.) Greater consistency with the theme of each one’s judgment. Those who believe in the immortality of the soul turn the theme of the final judgment into a non-sense thing. Why and what for will a final judgment be set, since people at their death go directly to their final destination—saved ones to “the glory”, lost ones to a site of tortures or, at least, a place not agreeable at all, where they will be expecting a punishment already defined?
5.) No identification with pagan beliefs. The identification of all pagan peoples with dualistic concepts demonstrates the superiority of the holistic view. Nobody is capable of indicating at least one pagan people that has renounced to belief in souls and spirits of people (or even of animals and things such as lakes, rivers, forests, volcanos) to believe in the final resurrection as the only means to return to existence after death, a point even highlighted in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, one of the foundations of the dualistic view (cf. Luke 16:31).
6.) Better defense against dangerous doctrines. The holistic view is the best protection and antidote against subtle errors that exist or has come to existence in these last times, such as spiritualism, Catholic doctrines as the purgatory and intercession of the saints, Mormonism, New Age, Eastern religions, etc., especially in the face of Christ’s and Paul’s warnings regarding the growing deceits of the final times (Matthew 24:24; 2 Timothy 3:1-5).
7.) Higher estimation of the divine love and justice. The vision of God’s justice and love is harmed by the belief in an eternally burning hell, with punishments totally out of proportion with the impenitent ones’ guilt. According to the holistic view, the pay will be proportional to the guilt and it will be liquidated, not made eternal (Matthew 5:26 and 18:30).
8.) Greater consistency with the meaning of basic Bible terms. Even though in the Bible language there are many mentions to “soul” and “spirit”, the Scriptures don’t authorize any concept of either an immortal “soul” or “spirit”. Besides informing us that only God is possessor of immortality, the Bible states that the soul can die (Ezekiel 18:4; James 5:20), not the opposite of it.
9.) Greater valuation of bodily health. It is well known that the Christians who maintain the dualistic understanding of human nature conceptualize the present life dualistically. They tend to consider the cultivation of the soul as more important than the care of the body. The physical well being of the body is often intentionally ignored, or even suppressed. That explains the holistic preoccupation of Seventh-day Adventists with health and the emphasis on the care of the body as “temple of the Holy Spirit”, to be wholly consecrated to the Lord (1 Corinthians 3: 16, 17).
10.) A more mature and real picture of the world to come. The popular notion of an eternal paradise, where glorified souls will spend eternity wearing white robes, playing harps, sailing on clouds and drinking the nectar of gods is alien to the Scriptures. The Bible speaks of the resurrected redeemed ones dwelling on this planet, that has been purified and transformed, turned into a perfect world at the second coming of the Lord (2 Peter 3:11-13; Romans 8:19-25; Revelation 21:1). The “new heavens and new Earth” (Isaiah 65:17) are not a remote and inconsequent spiritual retreat in some corner of the Universe. Rather, they are the present heavens and Earth renewed back to its original perfection.
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#162035 - 03/18/08 07:45 PM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: A_G_Brito]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 6196
Loc: CA
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Thanks for posting this. All very good quotes showing that in the history of the Christian church, many leaders have accepted the Bible teaching that the soul of man is mortal. Hundreds more, of course, could be added to that list. Among them are some, such as John Stott and Joachim Jeremias, both highly regarded theologians, who changed their views on this subject to one that conforms to the Bible's teachings.
A few years ago, a co-worker of mine was studying theology at a Baptist University in order to prepare for the ministry. He told me of his complete surprise when one of his theology professors asked for a show of hands of all who believed the soul is immortal and everyone raised his hand except the professor, who then explained that he believed in the non-immortality of the soul.
Studies done of the beliefs of pastors and professors show that a growing number of them are restudying the issue and coming to a view of the state of man in death that is more in line with the Bible rather than with tradition.
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Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#162089 - 03/19/08 02:43 AM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 126
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Well, I used to work in the Brazilian main office of an international and interconfessional social assistance institution that had a Baptist pastor as one of the chairmen. He was one of the "intellectuals" there as he had authored books and wrote many articles, and was even the editor of a magazine dedicated to missions. He now is even a Seminary professor of his denomination in the State of São Paulo, Brazil.
Talking with him I was surprised when he confessed to me that he agreed with the Adventist's position on the condition of the dead, but implied that he wouldn't open up on his convictions to not get into trouble within his denomination.
Later on I met him again in the Internet and asked him whether he maintained his wholistic views. He confirmed that to me and I even sent him some of these studies of mine on the subject.
Also I mentioned in my discussions above that I exchanged messages with Brazilian Lutheran pastors who openly said they agree with the wholistic view. There are even documents of the Lutheran Church in Brazil that another friend of mine indicated to me which clearly present the wholistic view, condemning the immortality of the soul as a pagan-originated doctrine. This friend is a Presbyterian but helps me in discussions on this subject, taking our stand.
Now, I never heard of this Joachim Jeremias you mentioned. Could you give me more information about him, even some quotes from him, please? That would enrich my repertoire of Christian leaders who adopted the wholistic view on man's nature and destiny.
Alleluia, there are still the 7,000 among Evangelicals who have not bent their knees to the Baal of dualism. . .
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