Hello, I am Rachel from China. I am new here.

I live in southern China. I had been a teacher, but am not teaching at the moment. I am translating some textbooks about nature for church school children. This work brings me a lot of joy and many little discoveries, which I want to share with others, also I have many questions that I want to ask others. That's why I am here.

Many of my questions are about the origin. Here are some of them:

1. Why did God make the sun, the moon and the stars on the 4th day instead of on the 1st day?

2. Where did the light go that was created on the 1st day?

3. Are there clouds in the sky before the Flood?

4. Was the earth tilted from the beginning?

5. Did the tilth of the earth change after the Flood?

6. Where was the land located on the earth in the beginning?

7. Did the Flood influence the earth's orbit around the sun? Was the length of a year before the Flood the same as that of now?

8. Walt Brown, a creation scientist thinks that comets, asteroids and meteoroids were formed by the earth's eruption during the Flood. What do you think about this?

For furthur information about Walt Brown's theory, see http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Asteroids.html

9. The Bible told us that on the first day of the creation week, God separated the light from the darkness, what does that separation mean? Did that light have a source?

10. Did the animals before man's fall look the same as they are now? Do the lions have sharp teeth as they do now? Did the animal begin to eat one another right after God pronouced the curse after man's fall?

11. If there were no fallen leaves before man's fall, wouldn't the forest's floor covered with animals' waste? or animals at that time knew to bury their waste like some animals still do now?

I have many more questions, but will wait until these are answered first.

Rachel

Hi Rachel

First, welcome! Sounds like you're doing excellent, important work.

There are some very interesting questions here. I might not be the best person to answer them, because I'm not sure that creation happened as six literal days, but I'll give them a try since no-one else has responded.

1. Why did God make the sun, the moon and the stars on the 4th day instead of on the 1st day?

In terms of the reasons for any of the events of Creation, I think we just have to accept that God is God and his reasons are sometimes not the same as our reasons. The section on creation at the end of the book of Job is instructive here: God basically says "Look, I'm sorry, but you're really not even capable of understanding". I guess what I'm trying to say is that the only reason I can think of for this seemingly illogical sequence is 'because He could'.

2. Where did the light go that was created on the 1st day?

Perhaps there was not a specific source for this light, like a sun or something, other than God's glory? Or, to put it another way, perhaps what God created on the first day was actually space, in which light could move, and then his own radiance provided the light itself. I've talked elsewhere about the idea that without space-time being created there's no way for light to exist.

3. Are there clouds in the sky before the Flood?

Many people think there was something much more than clouds in terms of the idea that the 'expanse' separated the water above from the water below. To account for the huge amounts of water needed for the Flood they say there was much more water in the sky, somehow, than there is now. I'm not sure what the implications of that are for sunlight getting to the earth.

4. Was the earth tilted from the beginning?

It seems as though it would have to be - without the earth's tilt there would be no seasons, wjhich would make it hard for plants to grow, and only a narrow band in each hemisphere would be temperate enough to allow life - there would be a large desert around the equator and large frozen zones extending from each pole.

5. Did the tilth of the earth change after the Flood?

This seems very improbable to me. I could do the calculations in more detail, but very roughly, even if the water was deep enough to cover every mountain on earth that only makes it a few km deep. Compare that to the 6400 km radius of the earth (depth to the centre) and it's clear that the mass of the water was perhaps one tenth of one percent of the mass of the earth: not enough to radically change its tilt. Of course, this assumes that God did not choose to miraculously change the eareth's tilt at that time.

6. Where was the land located on the earth in the beginning?

This is a tough one - from the Genesis 1 account it sounds possible that the earth was spherical and smooth and completely covered with water in the beginning, and God pulled the earth up in some places to create dry land, leaving the remaining 2/3 of the surface more deeply covered in water.

7. Did the Flood influence the earth's orbit around the sun? Was the length of a year before the Flood the same as that of now?

Same answer as to Question 5 - the mass of the water is so much less than the mass of the earth that it's very imporbable indeed that it could change the earth's orbit. Add to that the fact that the orbit would have to increase or decrease its distance from the sun to change its period, and that this would likely make it too hot or too cold for life, and it's very unlikely that the orbit changed, in my opinion.

8. Walt Brown, a creation scientist thinks that comets, asteroids and meteoroids were formed by the earth's eruption during the Flood. What do you think about this?

For furthur information about Walt Brown's theory, see http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Asteroids.html

I looked it up and the total mass of material in the asteroid belt is about 4% of the mass of the moon, or about 0.04% of the mass of earth. This does not include the comets or the asteroids outside the asteroid belt. If we assume a total mass of about 1% of the earth's mass, then ejecting that much mass would definitely change the earth's orbit (since the gravitation force between it and the sun is related to its mass), and I'd said in response to Question 7 that I thought the orbit change was extremely improbable. The comets in particular are also unimaginably far away from earth, and would have had to travel at extreme speeds to get where they are in a few thousand years, which would have taken immense amounts of energy, which had to come from somewhere. And I guess the final question in relation to this conjecture is 'Why?' How does it help creationism, or fit with the Biblical account?

9. The Bible told us that on the first day of the creation week, God separated the light from the darkness, what does that separation mean? Did that light have a source?

See the answer to Question 2 - I believe the first day may well be the creation of space.

10. Did the animals before man's fall look the same as they are now? Do the lions have sharp teeth as they do now? Did the animal begin to eat one another right after God pronouced the curse after man's fall?

Another toughy. Some Adventists scientists have conceded that there were carnivorous animals in Eden, but this introduces death before the Fall which is contrary to our theology. Assuming there was no death before the Fall there cannot have been carnivores. Then the question is whether God did a miracle at the Fall to create the superbly adapted carnivores we see today, or whether Satan did such a miracle. Certainly in terms of our current understanding of adaptation and natural selection there has not been time for carnivores to 'evolve' since creation if it was only a few thousand years ago. In other words, no easy Biblical answer for this one.

11. If there were no fallen leaves before man's fall, wouldn't the forest's floor covered with animals' waste? or animals at that time knew to bury their waste like some animals still do now?

Not one I'd ever thought of - but then, we find it hard to imagine an Edenic, perfect ecosystem anyway. If leaves didn;t fall due to their 'death' as part of natural cycles (remember, this doesn't involve the death of the organism as a whole, just a natural process of renewal like the regrowing of our skin cells) then did leaves 'die' when animals ate them? And does this consitute death before the Fall?

Probably as many questions as answers here, Rachel - but I hope that at least this makes a way in for some further discussions.

Looking at Walt Brown's stuff again, I also realised that the materials would have to reach escape velocity from the earth's gravitational field. This is about 11 km/second or about 7 miles per second (just over 25000 miles per hour).

To accelerate even just the 0.04% of the earth's mass that we know is in the asteroid belt to this velocity would require about 3 x 10^29 joules of energy. This is on the order of 1000 times the total output of the Sun in any given second. An explosion of this magnitude would be unlikely to be survivable on the surface of the earth.

And again, I'm not sure why this theory is needed - why couldn't God just have made the amazing, diverse, complicated solar system as it is?

Thank you, Bravus, for your answers.

I do not have much background of science, so I tend to see things from a housewife or a child's perspective. To the questions I raised, I have these thoughts, which might sound unscientific:

1. Why did God make the sun, the moon and the stars on the 4th day instead of on the 1st day?

You know in China, we often make dumplings. When making dumplings, we put the stuffing inside the paste first, then close up the paste, we do not close up the paste first, then put the stuffing, otherwise the paste will be broken.

So I think if God made the sun, the moon and the stars on the first day, and arranged their orbits accordingly, then after he created the air, the plants, and formed the land, the weight of the earth would be changed, hence the original design of orbits would all be changed.

2. Where did the light go that was created on the 1st day?

I have puzzled about this for a long time. Then Walt Brown's explanation helped me understand better.

When we make bread, we would knead a large lump first, and then cut it into small pieces, and bake them in the oven.

I imagine, the light created on the first day is like a large lump of dough, then on the fourth day, God separated it into individual stars. Is this possible?

3. Are there clouds in the sky before the Flood?

I think there aren't, as there aren't rain before the Flood. That may be because before the Flood, there weren't any dust in the high sky, for the vapor to condense into water droplets. But during the Flood, so much dust was errupted into the sky, which made it possible for vapor to condense into water droplets.

4. Was the earth tilted from the beginning?

I also believe the earth is tilted at the beginning, for on the fourth day, God created the sun, the moon and the stars to be signs, to tell seasons, and times. As there were seasons, the earth must be tilted then.

5. Did the tilth of the earth change after the Flood?

If we stick mud pies on the surface of a rubber ball, and then let it float on the water, if we change places of the mud pies, won't the ball's balance be disturbed?

So if the land mass was redistributed over the earth, why couldn't the tilth of the earth be changed?

6. Where was the land located on the earth in the beginning?

it's very hard to prove.

7. Did the Flood influence the earth's orbit around the sun? Was the length of a year before the Flood the same as that of now?

Why in Jewish calendar, a year contains 360 days instead of 365 days, is it because in the beginning, the earth only needed 360 days to orbit the sun once?

8. Walt Brown, a creation scientist thinks that comets, asteroids and meteoroids were formed by the earth's eruption during the Flood. What do you think about this?

For furthur information about Walt Brown's theory, see http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Asteroids.html

I do not know how to calculate, but Walt Brown's theory sounds very reasonable to me:)

9. The Bible told us that on the first day of the creation week, God separated the light from the darkness, what does that separation mean? Did that light have a source?

10. Did the animals before man's fall look the same as they are now? Do the lions have sharp teeth as they do now? Did the animal begin to eat one another right after God pronouced the curse after man's fall?

I think after man's fall, God foresaw that men would become more and more violent and cruel, if the animals were still the same as before, they would be extincted very soon. So God changed animals' genes, and made them fierce too. And to prevent some animals from being extincted by others, and attain a balance in the nature, one spieces animals would always have some preys, so the circle of life was formed.

11. If there were no fallen leaves before man's fall, wouldn't the forest's floor covered with animals' waste? or animals at that time knew to bury their waste like some animals still do now?

I do not know. Today, there are some places on the earth, where there inhabited inumerable birds, which just drop their waste on the ground, as years went by, their waste have been turned into fertile soil. But I have never been to such places,and do not know how they smell. Will the smell very bad?

Welcome to our forum. The topic of Orgins is exciting to many believers and right now we have a civil group of members here that likes to discuss us. I do believe in the six literal days of creation and of the world-wide flood.

1. Why did God make the sun, the moon and the stars on the 4th day instead of on the 1st day?

We have a thread here where we discussed that. Burned Out Stars & Starlight Problem

2. Where did the light go that was created on the 1st day?

As Bravus stated, it could have been from God's glory. Or, the sun could have been created already and God made its light visible to the surface of the Earth.

3. Are there clouds in the sky before the Flood?

Certainly not clouds as we know them since they cause rain and there was no rain. The Bible does say there was a firmament. Trouble is that we don't know what that firmament was. It could have been a water-vapor canopy. That would have created a greenhouse-type affect, like that gas-canopy on Venus, which causes the surface temperature on its poles to be similar to those on its equator. A water-vapor barrier could have also blocked out harmful rays from the sun which could have been one of the reason humans lived so long before the flood.

4. Was the earth tilted from the beginning?

The first time seasons are mentioned in the Bible, as we know them today, is after the Flood (Gen. 8:22). The "seasons" mentioned in Genesis 1:14 in context are not the four seasons we use to divide the year today. Since our seasons are caused by the Earth's wobble on its tilted axis, some creationists believe the axis wasn't tilted before the Flood. However, as Bravus has mentioned, the flood waters themselves wouldn't have been enough to tilt the axis. The reason there may not have been summer and winter before the Flood is because of the green-house canopy. The green-house canopy could ave provide a steady temperature year round even with the Earth wobbling on its axis.

5. Did the tilth of the earth change after the Flood?

If it did, it was due to God Himself changing it and not from the flood waters themselves.

6. Where was the land located on the earth in the beginning?

2 Peter 3:5 seems to indicate that the dry land came up from under the water.

7. Did the Flood influence the earth's orbit around the sun? Was the length of a year before the Flood the same as that of now?

Not likely, too much of a change and there would be no life here.

8. Walt Brown, a creation scientist thinks that comets, asteroids and meteoroids were formed by the earth's eruption during the Flood. What do you think about this?

Beware of creationists! Many creationists come up with the most wacky ideas and they make all of us look silly. Creationists play around a lot with speculation. However even with speculation, our ideas need to have some kind of scientific plausibility.

9. The Bible told us that on the first day of the creation week, God separated the light from the darkness, what does that separation mean? Did that light have a source?

We don't know. All we can do is speculate. Did He start Earth's rotation in the beginning? Or was just His presence light which vanished the darkness?

10. Did the animals before man's fall look the same as they are now? Do the lions have sharp teeth as they do now? Did the animal begin to eat one another right after God pronouced the curse after man's fall?

Isaiah 11:7 says that in the next world the lion will eat straw like the ox. The wolf will lay down with the lamb. Surely this is Eden restored. So something happened at the Fall. Plants grew thorns on them that hadn't had thorns before. Animals started eating animals that hadn't eaten them before.

11. If there were no fallen leaves before man's fall, wouldn't the forest's floor covered with animals' waste? or animals at that time knew to bury their waste like some animals still do now?

Science defines life differently than the Bible does. We have no reason to believe plants didn't die in Eden. Indeed Adam and Eve made clothes for themselves out of fig leaves after they sinned. Death first came when God killed an animal to make clothing for Adam and Eve out of animal skins. When God gave man permission to eat meat He forbid the eating of blood because the life is in the blood. Biblically speaking, something must have blood in order to have life.

Animals may have buried their waste. A heavy dew could have broken it down and allowed the ground to absorb it. Or they may have went in rivers and streams which would cleanse themselves. Or fallen vegetation could have covered it and worked it into a type of compost. It was a completely different biosphere so it is hard to even guess.

Read Genesis 1:14-19 carefully. Most would agree that the Bible teaches that God made the sun and moon on the 4th day. But, it is not so clear as to the stars. On that point the Bible says: "He also made the stars." I, along with others would suggest that it is being said that just as God created the sun and moon, he also created the stars (universe). But, there is not time line specified for the creation of the universe. IOW the creation of the earth, sun and moon (our solar system) could have been at a different time from that of the creation of the universe.

I agree. The verse that gives God credit for having created the stars is written in such a way that it probably has the meaning of a parenthesis, as if the writer is telling us "(by the way, God also made the stars)."

I don't necessarily agree that not having seasons would be a problem for plants. When we lived in the New Guinea highlands we were close to the Equator but at an altitude where the temperatures were very temperate. Being so far into the tropics there were no discernible seasons, just a change in rainfall at times.

In our garden we could grow anything at any time of the year. Our tomato garden, for instance, consisted of three beds - one with seedlings, one half grown, and one bearing. Thus we would always have fresh tomatoes. (This was a very important thing for me at the time.)

So if you postulate some sort of water vapour canopy which could act as an insulator which could distribute the heat energy equitably around the globe, so there were no extremes of heat or cold anywhere (and a fairly uniform distribution of vegetation would also contribute to this effect) then maybe seasons would not be de rigeur.

Graeme

Well, maybe, although tropical plants and plants from temperate zones are gonna be okay under those conditions but plants from higher and lower latitudes would be differently adapted. I guess the Aussie plants that only germinate in bushfires would also have had to be adapted after the Fall. Sounds like God maybe had another busy creation week a bit after the first one...

Our current natural world is totally dependent on death. All of our "pyramids" that we draw showing the various inhabitants of whatever habitats we are looking at depend on each layer chomping on the layer(s) beneath it.

All of our animals (and many plants) depend on specialised skills to either avoid becoming something's dinner or to ensure that something else becomes their dinner. Nature - red in tooth and claw.

I don't believe such a natural world is compatible with a God of Love who describes death as an enemy.

So yes, I believe that when God cursed the ground at the time of the Fall, it was a fairly extensive operation

Graeme

Again, these speculative, ad hoc sets of assumptions - a non-tilted orbit coupled with a water canopy - could work, but (a) from a scientific perspective Occam's Razor would suggest there are simpler and more elegant explanations, and (b) they are not required by anything in the Biblical account, so why come up with them?

Except for the fun of speculation, I guess.

Recent creationism already has enough issues with scientific credibility given that its basic assumptions are different. Making that case for people - the people who need to be convinced - is made even harder when whole sets of unnecessary extra unscientific speculations are kicked into the discussion.

The Earth is fearfully and wonderfully made and positioned - its distance from the sun and its tilt are perfectly adapted for life. Why would God not have set it up that way from the start? Why would he set it up in a way that is much more complicated and less effective, only to move it at the time of the Flood?

I recognise that 'sola scriptura' and taking the Bible first is the underlying principle... so what in the text even *suggests* a non-tilted earth?

I would suggest that the fact that the life expectancy of man dropped from about 1000 years to about 100-200 year fairly quickly after the Flood would indicate a pretty radical change in terrestrial conditions, wouldn't you?

Graeme

Do you think there was summer and winter in the Garden of Eden? Would not a perfect, unchanging climate be better? Remember Adam and Eve were clothed only in God's glory.

I understand that fossils found in the artic regions indicate that it was previously inhabited with grass-eating animals. Wouldn't that indicate that a great change took place at the time of the flood?

Beryl

But see, that raises the question of our idea of 'perfection'. What counts as perfection? Is unchanging climate 'better' than seasons? many people love seasons and would have trouble living in a place where there were none, while others hate them.

I stick by my point: the Scripture does not require these theories, the science does not support them, so why use them? It's always fun to speculate, but I can as easily speculate that the earth was tilted even further but God used his hand daily to redirect light from the sun to where it was most needed...

Many understand the Scripture as saying there was not Summer and Winter before the Flood. The Scripture doesn't say that. It doesn't mention Summer and Winter until after the Flood and that is why some believe it didn't exist before the Flood. That coupled with the fact the Scripture says it didn't rain before the Flood leads to the speculation about how the environment was different.