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#163534 - 03/29/08 10:32 AM Re: NT Greek Issues [Re: David Koot]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 6490
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: David Koot
I see there has been no response. Not sure of the reason for this. Generally speaking, however, I personally tend to shy away from books, etc., which seem to have an agenda or are out to attempt to prove a position. In so many cases, the evidence is interpreted, distorted or selected for the purpose of supporting the position statement, rather than the evidence as it appears being the basis of the position statement. They got it backward, what?


That's understandable. However, I read all kinds of books, including books written by Mormons, "Jehovah's Witnesses," Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, communists and other militant atheists.

When it comes to Christian books, as well almost any other book, I find that it is virtually impossible to find one whose author/s do not have a particular viewpoint. SDAs definitely have a particular viewpoint, but I study them diligently and enjoy them immensely. Ellen White certainly has a particular viewpoint and has what you call "an agenda." In fact, the gospels have such an agenda. The same with the Baptists and Methodists and Catholics. I read them all. The important thing is to read widely, because, as you say, a lot of writers are not "straight" with their readers and do get things backward.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#163735 - 03/30/08 07:33 AM Re: NT Greek Issues [Re: John317]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: John317
There were Gnostic groups which had women priests, something that did not occur in either the Old or New Testaments.

We might not expect the Gnostics to take the OT much into account, however, as the Gnostics rejected the Old Testament because they did not believe it was a revelation from the true God. They believed the Old Testament God was actually evil.


However, your original question was general in nature, in regard to ANY occurrence or application of the word. This definitely is relevant to that question. Aside from that, of interest is the derivation and origin of the word which the gnostics applied. Kittel's reference to Hindu ('Indian') influences I found intriguing. All that, of course, is different than Paul's use of the word. Yet one source of confusion in Paul's writings is his habit of using words in circulation in Hellenstic/Greco-Roman cultures, and applying them in a DIFFERENT WAY, with an OT twist! It can leave one wondering!

Dave

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#163856 - 03/30/08 10:58 PM Re: NT Greek Issues [Re: David Koot]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 6490
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: David Koot
Originally Posted By: John317
There were Gnostic groups which had women priests, something that did not occur in either the Old or New Testaments.

We might not expect the Gnostics to take the OT much into account, however, as the Gnostics rejected the Old Testament because they did not believe it was a revelation from the true God. They believed the Old Testament God was actually evil.


However, your original question was general in nature, in regard to ANY occurrence or application of the word. This definitely is relevant to that question. Aside from that, of interest is the derivation and origin of the word which the gnostics applied. Kittel's reference to Hindu ('Indian') influences I found intriguing. All that, of course, is different than Paul's use of the word. Yet one source of confusion in Paul's writings is his habit of using words in circulation in Hellenstic/Greco-Roman cultures, and applying them in a DIFFERENT WAY, with an OT twist! It can leave one wondering!

Dave


Here is how the original question was posed:

Quote:
A question I would now like to throw out, is, what is the meaning of "head" [Kephalee] at Ephesians 5:23 and 1 Cor. 11: 3? At issue is whether it means "authority over" or "source" or "origin"? Do you or any others have an opinion on this, based on a close study of the text and on how it is used there and elsewhere?


After looking at all the information and analysis that we have so far, what is the conclusion the evidence points to as to what "head" means in the following verses:

.... "... the husband is the head of the wife..." (1 Cor. 11: 3)

... " a husband is the head of his wife..." (Eph. 5: 23)

For myself, on the basis of its use in the literature referred to in this thread, I see its meaning as "authority over."
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#163905 - 03/31/08 03:00 AM Re: NT Greek Issues [Re: John317]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Ahhh, my poor choice of words. What I was referring to was your question about the meaning of the words OUTSIDE of the NT, including Gnostics and other applications. Posts # 156864 and onward begin delving into extra-Biblical uses of the words. That is what I was intending to refer to.

Dave

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#163907 - 03/31/08 03:14 AM Re: NT Greek Issues [Re: David Koot]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 6490
Loc: CA

Thanks for that clarification, Dave.

This was the statement:

Quote:
Then there's also the fact that in a search of the way kephalee is used in Greek literature outside the Bible, the evidence is overwhelming that it signifies authority, as the evidence in the writings of Paul also establish.


You bring up a good point. We haven't come to a conclusion yet on this thread as to whether my original statement is accurate or not. When I made the statement, of course I belieived it at the time, but I am certainly willing to revisit the question and the evidence in order to determine whether my original statement is a valid or invalid one.

_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#163920 - 03/31/08 05:40 AM Re: NT Greek Issues [Re: John317]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Actually, here is your post which I was originally responding to:

Quote:

Do you have a quote from Gnostics showing exactly how they used the word, Kephalee?

I know there were various Gnostic groups, such as the Montanists, who had women as officers in their groups, a practice which was condemned by both the Eastern and Western churches of that time.

(The Eastern church had slightly different practices from those in the West. For instance, it had many more deaconesses because of the sensitivity about the importance of the separation of men from women. These assisted in the preparation of women for baptism and also made sure that women understood the teachings prior to their baptism.)

I'll do some more research into the occurrence of the word outside the Bible. I believe there are only a few times when it was used where it MAY have the meaning of source, but even those do not unquestionably use it that way, as far as I understand the material at this point.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

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