You're right, the New Covenant was ratified when Jesus shed his life's blood for us on calvary.

A follow-up question, then: Can a covenant, once ratified, undergo change or be added to?





It was a part of God's plan for the people to keep the Sabbath from the time of the Exodus down to the time of Christ. Do you believe this?

Part of the evidence:

Check out Jer.17: 19-27; and then compare 2 Chron. 36: 19; 7: 19 and Daniel 1: 1,2. These verses show that God had Jerusalem destroyed and the people taken into exile because of the desecration of the weekly Sabbath. Daniel was taken into Babylonian exile because his people refused to obey God. The Sabbath was certainly still in effect in Jesus' day. He was the Creator, the One who made the Sabbath, and he kept it just as He intended all humans to keep it. See Luke 4: 16 and compare with John 14: 10. Jesus would have needed a Savior himself if he had broken his Father's commandments, because sin is the violation of God's moral law, and of course the Sabbath is part of the moral law.

Of course you'll let me know if you either don't understand or are not persuaded of something said.





When do you believe that occurred? What is the earliest time in history that the Christians claimed that Sunday was a celebration of the Lord's resurrection? When was Sunday first called "the Lord's day"?





Question #4 and your answer, which I believe is correct, show that the Sabbath was still being kept by Christians after the beginning of the New Covenant. That is, the Sabbath was being still kept by Jesus' followers after His death and ascension.

Now Question 5:

Is there any evidence that Sunday sacredness was instituted at any time before Christ was crucified?

Until you realize this your Sabbath keeping will be meaningless and legalistic. Sanctification cannot point to a finished work until we stand perfect at the 1st resurrection. I stand by my statement.

But that's not the reason we acknowledge the Sabbath. It doesn't matter if the world was sinless and perfect, it is not now. And it doesn't matter if in the future it will be made sinless and perfect, it is not now. The only reason for Sabbath observance is at it is tied to redemption. Otherwise SDA are much like the Judaizers who pushed circumcision. There are similarities.

The Judaizers made it a condition of our ultimate salvation, but Abraham was circumcised as a sign of righteous he already had by faith. Hence if we make the Sabbath anything besides a sign of justification by faith we make it legalistic.

Why do you believe that the writer of Hebrews used these two different words for "rest":


The LXX makes no verbal distinction between the Sabbath "rest" and the condition of "rest" that Israel was to experience every day in the Promised Land, if faithful. The author associates the two in such a way that shows the weekly Sabbath rest is being used as a sign and pledge of the promised life of rest. I'll have more to say about this tomorrow.

You will notice that in Hebrews 4, two different words for "rest" were used. There is no reason for the writer to use the word, Sabitismos, except for making a major point about the Sabbath.

New American Standard:

9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Compare "rest" in v. 5-- and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.”


John Wesley:

4:9 Therefore - Since he still speaks of another day, there must remain a farther, even an eternal, rest for the people of God.


Matthew Henry's Commentary on Hebrews 4: 9--

The rest, or sabbatism, which is the subject of the apostle's reasoning, and as to which he concludes that it remains to be enjoyed, is undoubtedly the heavenly rest, which remains to the people of God, and is opposed to a state of labour and trouble in this world. It is the rest they shall obtain when the Lord Jesus shall appear from heaven. But those who do not believe, shall never enter into this spiritual rest, either of grace here or glory hereafter. God has always declared man's rest to be in him, and his love to be the only real happiness of the soul; and faith in his promises, through his Son, to be the only way of entering that rest.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

9. therefore-because God "speaks of another day" (see on [2548]Heb 4:8).

remaineth-still to be realized hereafter by the "some (who) must enter therein" (Heb 4:6), that is, "the people of God," the true Israel who shall enter into God's rest ("My rest," Heb 4:3). God's rest was a Sabbatism; so also will ours be.

a rest-Greek, "Sabbatism." In time there are many Sabbaths, but then there shall be the enjoyment and keeping of a Sabbath-rest: one perfect and eternal. The "rest" in Heb 4:8 is Greek, "catapausis;" Hebrew, "Noah"; rest from weariness, as the ark rested on Ararat after its tossings to and fro; and as Israel, under Joshua, enjoyed at last rest from war in Canaan. But the "rest" in this Heb 4:9 is the nobler and more exalted (Hebrew) "Sabbath" rest; literally, "cessation": rest from work when finished (Heb 4:4), as God rested (Re 16:17). The two ideas of "rest" combined, give the perfect view of the heavenly Sabbath. Rest from weariness, sorrow, and sin; and rest in the completion of God's new creation (Re 21:5). The whole renovated creation shall share in it; nothing will there be to break the Sabbath of eternity; and the Triune God shall rejoice in the work of His hands (Zep 3:17). Moses, the representative of the law, could not lead Israel into Canaan: the law leads us to Christ, and there its office ceases, as that of Moses on the borders of Canaan: it is Jesus, the antitype of Joshua, who leads us into the heavenly rest. This verse indirectly establishes the obligation of the Sabbath still; for the type continues until the antitype supersedes it: so legal sacrifices continued till the great antitypical Sacrifice superseded it, As then the antitypical heavenly Sabbath-rest will not be till Christ, our Gospel Joshua, comes, to usher us into it, the typical earthly Sabbath must continue till then. The Jews call the future rest "the day which is all Sabbath."

Would you please explain to me how keeping the Sabbath as commanded in the 4th commandment is legalism while keeping the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or the 7th & 10th is not? Or do you consider keeping any of the other 9 legalistic?

Gerry

Wow! Robert and John you are both coming up with some good points. I am blessed by this dialogue.

I have one question John317 ...

You have stated ...



My question is ... Could we plug in a Homosexual into the formula? OR ... Would the Homosexual have to have complete victory BEFORE coming to God and being welcomed to Church.
IOWs how much time is required for victory over the sins that we have and is there a special rule for some sins?

Yes to your first question.

Of course the homosexual does not have to have complete victory before coming to God. In fact, unless he first comes to God just as he is, he has no real hope of gaining victory. But before he/she accepts Christ, the holy Spirit has already been working to convict of sin and to give a desire for God. (Contrary to what some believe, however, this is NOT salvation or justification or forgiveness, because the person has not yet surrendered his life to Christ or put his faith in Him. All they have done is experience the conviction and the desire.)

The homosexual does NOT have to have complete victory before being welcomed by or to the church.

I didn't have complete victory when I was baptized and was welcomed into the church, but I thought I did. I certainly had no plan to commit those sins again. The truth is that I had no idea how weak and helpless I was. I do not believe that I had the holy Spirit in my life at that time. I was not born again. I still had many, if not all, of my old desires and ways of thinking. I thought that I could stop any time.

I don't tell myself that I have complete victory NOW. All I know is that as long as I have Jesus and His Spirit in my life day-to-day, I am assured of victory if I choose that. That doesn't mean that the temptations or feelings are forever gone-- it just means that God gives me the power to resist and overcome and forsake them. It also means that God is healing me-- that is, God is in the business, by His Spirit, of changing the way people think and feel. It is almost as if He changes the circuits of the brain. That is what He has to do if people like me are going to really be changed on the inside. It is not just my behavior that has to change, because that can be faked for a while. It has to be my thinking and my desires that are changed, and he has been doing that. I no longer have a desire or deep longing for those things as I did virtually all of my life. That is gone. But it took over 40 years to reach this point. 3 years ago I was a completely different person. I was not struggling against that sin or any other sin. I had given up. I was committed to my sin. I thought God couldn't or wouldn't do anything to help me get out of it. I practiced it. That means I lived that sin like you live in your house. I didn't move away from that sin. I wanted it. I loved it. I had no desire to stop it. I was no longer praying for God to help me or forgive me. That is the difference between a gay person who is practicing his sin and one who is resisting it and wants help. There is a world of difference.

Every gay person experiences these things a little differently or even a lot differently. Some seem to gain complete victory almost like overnight. Others go on struggling with it for many years, even decades.

But notice that I said "struggling." They may go for months and even years between times when they fall into sin.

Yet notice that they are "struggling." They are not saying, "I'm going to commit sin," or "I'm just that way and I can't help it and therefore God will just have to save me IN HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICES."

According to the Biblical picture, a person is not "practicing" homosexuality if they are resisting and struggling against it and fall occasionally into that sin. Let's say a person goes months or even a year or two, or maybe even a decade or more, without even wanting to commit a homosexual sin. God is helping him/her gain the victory over that sin. The person has no plan to commit it and he prays that God will fill his life with new thoughts and desires, etc. And God is doing that. But then let's say that a temptation is presented to him at a time when he had no expectations of it. He was not planning it, and he was doing everything in his power to avoid any situations that would make such temptations likely. But for whatever reason, something happens, and the individual "falls." The Bible does not refer to this as a willful and deliberate practice of sin.

Let me know if this is clear, or if you have questions, and then we can go on from here.

Thanks John. I appreciate all that you have said and can see the truth in the examples you provided. It helped me to see the way you put this and shared your experience. Thank you.

Oops, sorry, bassackwards; my functional dyslexia, again.

“typical/antitypical”

Quote:jasd
Insofar as it was part of the general economy and the economy of law-keeping, per se.[/quote]

>>I think you will find that it was more than that. It was a part of God's plan for the people to keep the Sabbath from the time of the Exodus down to the time of Christ. Do you believe this?<<

I am in agreement. I do believe Gd desired that the COI should keep the Covenant made with them.

>>Check out Jer. 19-27;<<



I'm sorry I made a mistake the first time I wrote that post. I meant to cite Jeremiah 17: 19-27, especially verses 21, 22 and 27.

Please check that out and see how that changes your response.

RE-POSTED:

Somehow, when inserting an [immediately above] emendment (post #164751), John317 inadvertently made it necessary that I re-post the original post...



>>I think you will find that it was more than that. It was a part of God's plan for the people to keep the Sabbath from the time of the Exodus down to the time of Christ. Do you believe this?<<

I am in agreement. I do believe Gd desired that the COI should keep the Covenant made with them.

>>Check out Jer. 19-27;<<

I’m glad you referenced that particular passage, especially Jeremiah, chapter 19, verse 10, “Then shalt thou break the bottle
...” and verse 11”... Even so will I break this people and this city, as [one] breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: ...”

>>These verses show that God had Jerusalem destroyed and the people taken into exile because of the desecration of the weekly Sabbath.<< [ed.jasd]

Per the references “2 Chron. 36: 19; 7: 19 and Daniel 1: 1,2.” – you make reference to the ‘land Sabbaths’, do you not – as causal factor for the judgements, desolations, and Captivity?

I would add:

Jer 1:16 And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness,

>>The Sabbath was certainly still in effect in Jesus' day. He was the Creator, the One who made the Sabbath, and he kept it just as He intended all humans to keep it. See Luke 4: 16 and compare with John 14: 10.<<

Indeed.

Lu 4:16 ... as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, ...

...tells us that Jesus Christ did as “custom” dictated. Why did St Luke elect to utilize “custom”, as does St Paul when he later exhorts...

“...I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some” (1 Cor 9:22) or, “Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:” (2 Cor 6:3) or

Surely so, were Jesus Christ to have neglected the “custom” of the Jews – he would have given grave offense...

>>Jesus would have needed a sinner himself if he had broken his Father's commandments, because sin is the violation of God's moral law, and of course the Sabbath is part of the moral law.<< [ed.jasd]

You meant Saviour, did you not? ;-)

Indeed, Jesus Christ came to fulfill The Law (do you not, elsewhere, subscribe to the epiphanous Christ who gave The Law?) ; however, I submit that as much as the Ark of the Covenant was removed /separated from the economy of the Jews; likewise, the land was removed/separated (Jer 19:11 ”...that cannot be made whole again:”); as was the Temple removed (destroyed) from them; etc;

so was the Seventh-day Sabbath, much earlier-on, hidden/removed/separated from them – for their profanement of its sanctity. (note: the Babylonian influence in the Hebrew calendar, postMosaic)