The GC often has Heads of State visit them.

What if the Pope wanted to? He is the Head of State for the world's smallest country.

That would drive some of the rumour mongers and conspiracy fans wild.

Should 'we' accept? Or reject? AND why?

As you said, he is a head of state. Should not matter how small or large the country is. I do not listen to rumors so I don't care how 'wild' that would drive them.

'We' should accept him because 'we' are Seventh Day Adventists with the only real faith and 'we' love won another and 'we' forgive him for not having the 'right' faith. Isn't that part of our love and forgiveness that everyone is preaching so much about these days?

What would Jesus do?

There have been some popes in the past who have accepted Christ as their savior (they usually didn't live long after though). You never know who is going to be a disciple. If Madonna wanted to have lunch with me, it would be difficult for me to accept that one. "Not my will, but thine be done."

Why would that be difficult for you? If she did not have the word of God and you could share it, then why would you have a hard time with it? I agree with what was posted here WWJD?

The POpe and the RCC are wiley and wordly wise. They are also immensely popular and the world spotlight is on him and anything he draws attention to. The Pope is certainly not going to draw attention to the SDA Church by visiting the GC. If anything the Pope would crticize this church from a distance. He probably wouldn't do that, at least not directly, because to them this church is a little ant, or gadfly that is not worth paying attention to.

DB

What's the big deal about it? I view GC for what it is... a huge church board meeting. It is not really good or bad... just a way of doing things. It's neither promoted, nor disapproved of by the Bible. With that said, what's the difference if Pope visits the GC? Several adventist have exchanged handshakes with the pope. This guy even gave him a medal :)



And in this picture they actually exchange a masonic handshake.



It would be a huge deal if that guy represented me, but he does not. He may claim, but my belief is an individual belief, and he may choose to do whatever he wants to. That's the problem with denominationalism is that it is a group think exclusive mentality of all-or-nothing type of Christianity... i.e. Pharaseism... i.e. we should not eat with Gentiles. I think we should be above that.


Before anyone jumps on my case :)... to be fair to mr. Beach, I don't have any reason to believe that he is a mason, and a medal he presented was a GC medallion he usually presented to leaders of other countries. Although to this day he is criticized for attending that conference summoned by the Pope. But that's exactly my point. You can turn the above stated into a big deal if you really wanted to. Pope is not the beast, the papal system is.

For me, without question, I would say accept. But not if acceptance means we would address him as "holy father," or kiss his hand, etc. We should be polite and friendly, but we should not be afraid of speaking the truth to him, or be intimidated by his office and power.

I think he would be more impressed by people willing to speak forthrightly than he would be with those giving him medals, etc. Everyone tries to flatter him. Jesus didn't say things to flatter people. He told them the truth but always with love in his voice. We should do the same with the pope if he should visit us. I would talk first about the things we have in common as Christians, and the shared values, etc., but it would be a failed meeting if we didn't also discuss the differences.

If i were at the GC I would say. Dear Mr. Ratzinger, you are only human, just like me and every other guy. If you truly want to love God, you should find yourself another job, abolish the eucharist, replace the man-made system with a biblical system. Furthermore i would advise you to quit all of your occult activities with the freemasons and so on. IF you are willing to do all this, you can become a member of the true church of God.

Seventh Day adventism is not for sale!no worldy gospel!

The question immediately comes to mind, why would the Pope want to visit the GC. Why is he visiting America right now? I think it's primarily to make a statement of power and allegiance. I'm quite young in the church so who's that Adventist leader shaking hands with the pope? I just don't feel that he would come with the aim of fellowshipping or anything like that. He already knows very well where our faith agrees and I believe he knows where we disagree in even finer detail. I don't know if he has committed the unpardonable sin or anything like that so I won't comment in that perspective but I just feel that every time he goes to see someone its because he wants to broker some kind of allegiance to himself. He doesn't go to the White House just for a birthday party! I just think everybody needs to share with me on this perspective because just the thought of him taking part in the GC or attending one of their meetings or something like that brings a chill down my spine! Shalom!

Actually I agree with the main gist of your post. But I think the question was posed just in order to discuss what our attitude ought to be toward the pope if he were to have any intention of visiting the GC. Not that anyone in the church believes that he would, but should we welcome him if he were to put in an appearance there?

You're right about the pope's intention in coming to the US and the White House.

The Adventist leader in the picture you are referring to is BB Beach. See: http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/2008/04/bb-beach-wcc-easter-worship-1997.html

I personally believe it was a mistake for him to do what he did-- giving the pope a medal. But we have to understand that while the Catholic and papal system are the first power described in Rev. 13, individuals in that system may be perfectly sincere Christians, and hence they ought to be welcomed into our meetings to learn what we believe. That is my own personal belief.

**GP**

Did you see the freakin' amount of money that was spent to pretty up all the places the pope went? I saw a news item on just the carpeting that was made brand new for him to walk on. OUTRAGEOUS! The only truely interesting part was that the carpet was made by a company run by the son of holocaust camp survivors.

Amelia,

You should check out how much money White house spends on some of their foreign visits. For example, for a week trip to China... Clinton spent over $20 mil . If that's not outrageous, I'm not sure what it :).

I'm sure that Pope gets his fair share of perks too. I think that we should not get caught up criticizing individuals in the system. One of my catholic friends wrote me

"Watched the Pope on Sunday. It was very moving and inspirational and
I'm sure millions were blessed by this Godly, humble man."

It's kind of hard to get our message through to people who's hero is our foe. It's hard to kill your own children so to speak.

But how much did China spend on Stuff for the Clinton visit?

I'm sorry, but all that money for new carpets for the pope to walk on and a one time use at that. BLEH!

BB Beach, his job is to act as liason between this church and other churches. So he was within the framework of his work to greet the pope and give him a medal.

You are correct.

This story does get blown way out of proportion. People wrongly assume that giving the pope a medal was an attempt to somehow honor him like giving him an Olympic medal. What was given was more of a memento or commemorative coin, which PARL gives out to a variety of people. There was no public ceremony and Dr. Beach was a part of an informal delegation of representatives of a variety of other denominations that briefly met with the pope. I have one of the medals that I asked for and got so I could see what it looked like. I don't have it with me at the moment but from memory, one side has a picture of the second coming and the other side the bible and ten commandments with the 4th highlighted. In short, it is a witness of the SDA Church and what it stands for. I believe Dr. Beach also gave him one of our books as well.

This sort of liaison work with leaders of other denominations is very much in harmony with recommendations of EGW. She says that our pastors should meet with the pastors of other denominations.

Tom

Tom

We should be kind and thoughtful and even loving toward the pope-- but "loving" means being truthful and honest with him. It does not mean flattering him or telling him smooth things or giving him a medal in order to show him "honor," or high respect or esteem. These actions have great significance and they are interpreted as such by the Vatican. They have great experience in diplomacy-- over 1500 years of it-- and they understand what these things point to. Words and actions have meaning.

You say we gave him the medal in order to "somehow honor" the pope.

Here is what "honor" means:

high respect, esteem, an exalted position, confer as a distinction, regard with great respect; fulfill an obligation, honor implies acknowledgment of a person's right to such respect;Homage is honor with praise or tributes added, and it connotes a more worshipful attitude;Reverence combines profound respect with love or devotion, while deference suggests courteous regard for a superior, often by yielding to the person's status or wishes. Obeisance is a show of honor or reverence by an act or gesture of submission or humility.

Which one of those define what we were attempting to show the pope when we gave him the medal? He no doubt took it to signify the church is joining those who do him and his office "homage," or acknowledge his right to such respect.

But the church which teaches that the papacy is the antichrist system, a great part of "Babylon," and responsible for millions of deaths, has no business giving "honor," or showing high respect, to the head of that false system, addressing him as "HOLY FATHER."

Here is the medal given to the pope, and in another post I will give the official exchanges that took place between the SDA representative and the pope.


A GOLD MEDAL PRESENTED TO THE POPE (THE MAN OF SIN)
Beach presented the Pope with a conference-issued gold medal. The 8-11-77 Review said it was a “symbol of the Seventh-day Adventist church.” It was felt that it was of interest to meet with the man who is the religious leader of some 700 million people….[Beach] gave him one of the medallions that…are given from time to time to statesmen.

You can see the medal on this link: http://www.calltorepent.com/beach-1977

There are several items on this gold medal which are designed to please the pope.
1. Christ is in a Catholic stance, like the Vatican painting by Francis de Assisi, and idols. His beard is forked.
2. This Christ has no crown on his head. The one in Revelation 19:12 does.
3. It appears that Jesus is standing on the summit of a mountain like Satan will when personating Christ. The true Christ will not touch the earth when he returns.
4. There is a cloud with nine lightning bolts extending from it, just as mystery religions and the medieval papacy used. It was a symbol of Satan in the mysteries.
5. There are eight angels. Eight is the symbol of the sun day.
6. The angels are shown facing toward and worshiping Christ, after he has arrived on earth. (They should be shown as facing the earth with Jesus as they come toward it.)
7. The Christ in Rev. 1:16 has seven stars in his hand. This Christ has six on each side.
8. The Maltese cross is a Vatican symbol. Typically, this has four equal rays flowing outward from a central sun. Each ray expands in width as it radiates outward and terminates in two horns, producing an eight-pointed cross. It is thus a sun symbol in two ways (the radiating sun, and the eight points.)
9. THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT READS THE SAME WAY THE PAPACY ATTEMPTED TO CHANGE IT–the way the third commandment is quoted in the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine. When the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath Commandment, what did they change it to? They used the exact wording given on the back of the gold medal.

THE POPE’S GREETING: Under the title, “Seeking the Objectives of Complete Unity”, a Catholic newspaper reported this: “After the general audience of Wednesday, the 18th inst., the Holy Father received the participants of the Conference of Secretaries of World Confessional Families. The group was accompanied by Bishop John Howe, General Secretary of the Anglican Consultative Council, and Mr. B. B. Beach, General Secretary of the Seventh-day Adventists. This was the first time that representatives of the Seventh-day Adventists met the Pope. To commemorate this significant moment, they offered an artistic gold medal to the Holy Father.

The Holy Father directed the following discourse to them:

Dear brethren in Christ: We rejoice to be able to receive such an important group today, and we welcome you to Peter’s See.

In you we greet the representatives of a considerable portion of the Christian people, and through you we send our wishes of grace and peace in the Lord to your Confessional Families. [Beach represented the whole church!]

We are happy to express, in your presence, our common faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God [the Christ in immaculate flesh], the only Mediator with the Father, the Saviour of the world. Yes, brethren, together with the Apostle Peter, we proclaim that Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12.

On her part, the Catholic Church is solemnly engaged, through Vatican Council II, in an ecumenism based on increased fidelity to Christ the Lord and on heart conversion. At the same time, she is conscious that nothing is more alien to ecumenism than that false irenicism [methods of securing unity among Christians or harmony and union among the churches; - called also Irenical theology] that would harm the Catholic doctrine and obscure its genuine and precise meaning.

Reinforced by the power of the word of God, let us therefore pursue, despite all difficulties, the objective of full unity in Christ and in the Church.
And, with humbleness and love, let us direct our thoughts and our hopes to our Lord Jesus Christ. Glory be given to Him, as well as to the Father and to the Holy Spirit, for ever and ever.” Osservatore Romano (Catholic paper, Portuguese edition), May 29, 1977.

B.B. BEACH’S RESPONSE: Another Catholic newspaper reported this: The Confer-ence of Secretaries of World Confessional Families was organized twenty years ago, and its founder was the First Secretary of the Anglican Advisory Council, Bishop John Howe. The present Secretary of the Conference and at the same time the First Secretary of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Mr. Beach, made a statement at the Vatican Radio emphasizing the impor-tance of this first meeting of Adventists with the Pope. Word for word, this is what he said: “It was a great honor for me, as the Secretary of the Conference, to be present here in Rome, in audience with the Holy Father. On this occasion I presented to the Pope a book about the world-wide work of the Adventist Church.” Glas Koncila (Catholic paper in Yugoslavia), June 5, 1977.

B. B. Beach, a Seventh-day Adventist, representing the Seventh-day Adventist church, in an interview over Vatican radio used the term “Holy Father” in referring to the Pope, the representative of the beast of Rev. 13 and 14!


“It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the papacy.” Ellen White, Signs, Feb. 19, 1894.

What is your point here John317. Are you saying that the church I love is 'evil'? Why do you criticize the actions of our church. Do you no longer support the organization? Is our church now Babylon? Just what is your point?

I don't see, in the handshake picture how anyone can tell where the pope's thumb is exactly and can judge whether it is a mason's handshake or not. I don't think that everything that every single person does is calculated to be done a certain way.

John317,

You would do well to use sources uncluttered by an obvious bias to criticize and berate the Church. All the strange conjecture by your sources about its hidden meanings are rather simply off target.


You would also do well to read more carefully what I said before going off on a tangent of elaborating on the meaning of the word "honor." I did NOT say we gave it to him to somehow honor the pope. You obviously ignored my rather clear statement, which I got from the original source, Dr Beach himself, that this medallion was NOT to honor the pope. I clearly said that this is the wrong assumption of some people. It was simply a memento, a gift, given on the occasion of a meeting. This was not a medallion specially designed to be given to the pope, but one given to a wide variety of people as a remembrance of the SDA Church. It has more to do do with honoring the SDA Church that the giver represented than the one receiving it.


Tom

In my opinion, John, any website that exists for pointing out the cooperate sins of the denomination, would not be a site I would not choose to frequent. The Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, not some website. It is far better to light a candle than curse any supposed darkness. I found it interesting that the creators of this website feel that they can call for the disfelowship of people. Below you will see what I am talking about. This is a direct quote from the article. (To be honest it sounds like something which would have been printed on the previous John Osborn's writings before he came back to the church or in the magazine "Our Firm Foundation")

CALL TO REPENTANCE: The giving of a gold-medal, a symbol of the SDA church, is a corporate sin. B.B.Beach represented the Seventh-day Adventist church. We call on both Br. Beach and the General Conference to publicly repudiate the 1977 gold medal gift to the Pope in the pages of the Adventist Review. If not, they should be disfellowshipped. They did not represent true Biblical Seventh-day Adventism.

John, after reading all that stuff you posted, I have only one thing to say....

All that stuff you copied and pasted here strikes me as a legalistic mind unregenerated by grace....

Have a nice day, John....

Some would say that the medal was getting our message across the hard way.

As for the hand shake? Can you say conspiracy theroist? Yeah, I knew you could. The Vatican also has a time machine in the basement they could sell him. Oh, but they don't sell their treasures do they?

Thanks for posting this Taylor.

I just see all this controversy as the work of Satan. HE would seek to divide us. Our task is to Love one Another. If Jesus was walking this earth .... He would show love to the Pope. We are to do the same. For truly ... Love Won Another. It serves no purpose to hate. For Hate will not Win Another.

We in the SDA church have many differences in beliefs. WE are first and foremost Christians. We need to start acting like that. And accepting of our differences would be a good place to do that. We as Christians do not have to agree. One may worship on Saturday one on Sunday. One may eat meat and one may not. But we can come together without calling for disfellowship due to differences in understandings.

Tolerance Tolerance Tolerance.

Actually, the handshake is Beach refusing to kiss Pope's hand which he gave him in a kissing position . So in the kissing position it stayed during the handshake.

*GP*

My refference to masonic handshake was to demonstrate a simple point... and the point is: you can make huge deal even out of such simple things like handshake.

The medallion was not minted specifically for Pope. It was GC medallion that was given to statesman from GC. Some of the points that John gave are actually complaints from Reform SDAs, which I think stretch things a bit... such as that 8 angels represent Sunday :). Although I am very uncomfortable with paintings/engravings of Jesus of any kind.

You are right Cool ... You can find these extremist complaints readily on the web. There are both liberal and conservative extremists web sites out there. I take both extremes with a grain of salt because you have to have too much imagination to believe that stuff. I just don't find it productive. I will stick with the clear word of God which tells me to love one another. And the Pope is just a man.

Oops I meant to say: "In my opinion, Joh, any website that exists for pointing out the corporate sins of the denomination, would not be a site I would choose to frequent"

Sorry for the typos.

Without a doubt. As for JPII, his goal was world domination for the papacy. Regarding the U.S. and the papacy, he had these words to say just before coming to the Capitol in 1984:

"Precisely because we are defenseless, we have a special right to influence those who wield the sword of authority. It is well known that in the field of political action, as elsewhere, not everything is accomplished by the sword. There are deeper reasons, and stronger laws to which nations and kings are accountable. We come before those in authority as spokesmen for the moral order."

That fits in very well with Rev. 13:11 ff.

Give the guy a medal? Yeah, right. As for Herr Ratzinger, do you think his purposes are different? He has been working Western Europe, seeking to bring Europe back to the fold, and realizing Adenauer's dream of a Christian Europe. Adenauer, after all, saw Germany in historic terms as the defender of Christendom, going back to the Middle Ages. He sought a holy alliance between the Catholic countries, Germany, France, Benelux, etc. That is Ratzinger's dream. And I believe it will happen. I see good reason to believe that the prophetic picture unfolded in the Great Controversy will come to pass under this pope.

Welcome this guy at the GC and pat him on the back? Would you welcome one who is dedicated to your destruction, who denies the validity of your Christian beliefs and experience, and who could well be the 'moral authority' which influences the U.S. government to order your death? I woudln't think so.

Dave

But Dave ... Although The Pope has declared that we Christians do not have salvation unless we go through HIM ... he still wants to be our friends. I think that is what the visit is saying. So, we as 'lost sinners' ... we should at least try to be kind to him. After all ... we ARE suppose to love our enemies.

Was any of the information about the medal and what occurred in the meeting between the pope and BB Beach incorrect as far as you've been able to determine?

Should those who represent us as Seventh-day Adventists be referring to the bishop of Rome as "Holy Father"? Should they (we) be giving the bishop of Rome medals which portray the Ten Commandments in the truncated form in which they occur in the Catholic catechism?

Yes, we are to love our enemies. But that means real love, not the love that the world has, but the love that God has, which is based on truth and righteousness and not on flattery and deceit. That is not genuine love. It's not love that leads a Seventh-day Adventist to call the pope "Holy Father."

What did you find inaccurate in either the depiction of the medal or in the record of what was said by both the pope and B.B. Beach, which I posted?

What was inaccurate in the depiction of the medal or in the record of what was said between the pope and B.B. Beach?

Did B.B. Beach give the pope a medal depicting the Ten Commandments in the truncated form in which it occurs in the Catholic catechism? Did B.B. Beach call the pope "Holy Father"?

It's unreasonable to think that the the vatican interpreted B.B. Beach's visit and the giving of a medal as honoring the SDA church. If you look carefully at the medal, it is not one that has anything to do with Seventh-day Adventism. The Ten Commandments are never written in that form by SDAs unless they are showing how the fourth commandment is written in the Catholic catechism. It just happens that the way Jesus is portrayed on the medal is a typically catholic stance. These and other things on the medal are not coincidental.

I'd like to know what other people this same medal was given to prior to its being given to the pope. Do you know?

When people jump to conclusions about WHY things are done they way they are, and try to pick apart every single picture or detail of something and try to ascribe meaning to it, sure they can find something to complain about.
1. One can make a complete communist out of a democratic president too, if one chopps up what they have said and glue it back together.
2. An artist may draw a picture with a group of angels, never thinking, for instance that it is "wrong" to have 4 verses 8 versus 12 angels, not because it has some deep meaning.
3. The mere source of your many points is a source which is highly critical of the church and God is not the accuser of the brethern .

Just my 2 cents.

John's Comment: If you look carefully at the medal, it is not one that has anything to do with Seventh-day Adventism. The Ten Commandments are never written in that form by SDAs unless they are showing how the fourth commandment is written in the Catholic catechism.

Taylor's Comments: How, are they supposed to get the ENTIRE 10 commandments, or even the 4th on such a small medal? Not only does the medal remind people of the Sabbath that God is the creator


John's Comment: It just happens that the way Jesus is portrayed on the medal is a typically catholic stance. These and other things on the medal are not coincidental.

Taylor's Comments: With all due respect you can't judge whether it is coicidental or not. You have not met the person who designed it, or walked in their shoes. You have no idea if it is "purposful" or "coincidental". There are many many artists renditions of Jesus, some are more beautiful than others, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what is beautiful to you may not be to another person.

My point simply is this, when one can't read the mind of another it is impossible to judge the motives of their heart. It is a job left up to God.

Instead of focusing on what is "wrong" with our church we should be out spending our entire energies telling others about Jesus and preparing to meet God. Let God do the judging. If it the motivation of the GC is a cynical as you seem to think, God will judge it accordingly. However, I also know that we have been counseled at the Adventist church will "make it through to the other shore" and will appear to fall but will not fall. Hence I choose to not focus on any "trembelings" in my church, if they are "tremblings" I choose to focus on Jesus and the salvation of souls as in the end that will be all that matters.

I am traveling right now, but will be happy to take the time to itemize those distortions when I return to my office and take out the medal I have and the official PARL response to all this rumor-mongering about Dr. Beach and the medallion given to the pope.

As to who else was given one, I can only guess why you think that would be somehow significant in the grand conspiracy theory that you are helping to perpetuate by cutting and pasting from those anti-SDA Church websites. But given the nature of the medallion, I seriously doubt any record is kept of who is given one. The fact that a PARL office assistant was free to give me one without clearing it with anyone should tell you how significant an "honor" it is supposed to be. It is a nice give-away item.

Tom

I remember a Conference President telling me about a discussion that was had in the GC about whether to lower the flag after the death of John Paul. One wing of the church would interpret the lowering of the flag as a sign of allegiance/sympathy to the papacy. If the flag was not lowered the community would see it as a sign of disrespect for Catholics and a lack of compassion for those Catholics who are grieving. He told me that they decided to take it down altogether. I don't know how accurate the story is. I really don't have a lot of patience for this "nit picking". There are other more pressing challenges that face our church.

It does not diminish the witness of the SDA church by lowering a flag or giving a medal. I have met Mr Beech and heard his explanation while I was in seminary. He stuck me as a man of God who is passionate about reaching out to other denominations, making friends and thereby increasing the influence of the SDA church. Its really that simple.

Just scanning through the various items on the website calltorepent.com I'm amazed at those things the authors would draw attention to as examples of corporate sins of the church. I'm expecting to see a page exposing the Jesuits in the GC. Its pathetic and misguided stuff in my humble opinion.

In another place, John said-


Many of our OWN articles that show the tablets of the Ten Commandments with the 4th highlighted with the following words-"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". AND that is what is on the coin...It is NOT some catholic symbolic wording/picture relating to the Catholic powers designed to subdue the innocent individual into believing that Catholisism is the correct way to God. Jeese Louise, talk about convoluted twisted hypocondriac logic....It was a coin of friendship given to a representative of a religious country. Don't make it into something that smacks of conspiracy...

The Good News is that the way is about Jesus, His life and His redemption and His sacrifice. It's about Him....and that message needs to permmiate [sp] all of our thinking processes....If it don't, how can one even be considered safe to go to heaven?

Cound not agree more!

Do you see anything objectionable in a church representative meeting the pope and calling him "Holy Father"?

Is this an accurate report?--

"The present Secretary of the Conference and at the same time the First Secretary of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Mr. Beach, made a statement at the Vatican Radio emphasizing the impor-tance of this first meeting of Adventists with the Pope. Word for word, this is what he said: 'It was a great honor for me, as the Secretary of the Conference, to be present here in Rome, in audience with the Holy Father. On this occasion I presented to the Pope a book about the world-wide work of the Adventist Church.' Glas Koncila (Catholic paper in Yugoslavia), June 5, 1977."