As to the Beach overture to JP II, it could come back to haunt us someday (and no doubt will).

Koot's description of the "Vatican rottweiler" is right on par with what we know of him.


oG

The way I see it, many SDAs, who ought to know better, are in danger of ignoring or not paying attention to the following warnings of the prophet of God, Ellen White:

A day of great intellectual darkness has been shown to be favorable to the success of popery. It will yet be demonstrated that a day of great intellectual light is equally favorable for its success....

In the movements now in progress in this country [the United States] to secure for the institutions and usages of the church the support of the State, Protestants are following in the steps of papists. Nay, more, they are opening the door for popery to regain in Protestant America the supremacy which she has lost in the Old World. And that which gives greater significance to the movement is the fact that the principal object contemplated is the enforcement of Sunday observance-- a custom which originated with Rome, and which she claims as the sign of her authority. The Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, p. 390.

How the Roman Church can clear herself from the charge of idolatry we cannot see... And this is the religion which Protestants are beginning to look upon with so much favor, and which will eventually be united with Protestantism. This union will not, however, be effected by a change in Catholicism; for Rome never changes. She claims infallibility. It is Protestantism that will change. The adoption of liberal ideas on its part will bring it where it can clasp the hand of Catholicism. Review and Herald, June 1, 1886. (Quoted in Dramatic Prophecies of Ellen White, Herbert Edgar Douglass, p.78.)

NOTICE THAT THIS INCREDIBLE UNION WILL OCCUR, NOT BECAUSE THE PAPACY WILL CONCEDE ANYTHING, BUT BECAUSE PROTESTANTISM WILL CHANGE DUE TO ITS "ADOPTION OF LIBERAL IDEAS."

Protestants little know what they are doing when they propose to accept the aid of Rome in the work of Sunday exaltation. While they are bent upon the accomplishment of their purpose, Rome is aiming to re-establish her power, to recover her lost supremacy. Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured.

God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. GC 581

I don't agree that calling a human being "reverend" is like calling someone Dr. So what if their titled is "God,' do we call them that too just because it is their title and they expect you to call them "God"?

Words having meaning.



So let THEM use it. We shouldn't.



Yes, calling the Pope, "Holy Father," is contrary to SDA beliefs, at least it used to be.



Do you believe the following statement?--

"The Papacy is well adapted to meet the wants of all these [i.e., those who are ignorant both of the Scriptures and of the power of God]. It is prepared for two classes of mankind, embracing nearly the whole world-- those who would be saved by their merits, and those who would be saved in their sins. Here is the secret of its power." GC 572.

Ellen White, as well as the Bible, says that we are NOT saved in our sins. You have often contradicted this and maintained that we ARE saved in our sins. Ellen White here states clearly that the Papacy teaches also that we are saved in our sins, and this false teaching is one of the secrets of its power.

What do you think of this?

John, no one is arguing that the Pope is somehow someone we should follow. We recognize the problems both historically, prophetically, and currently.

I also don't like calling someone the "Holy Father" however it is the title he is called and just maybe people can consider that the one giving the "medal" wasn't trying to "worship" the pope but was simply being respectful. I also wouldn't be comfortable using it ever for a human, but I don't think we can judge people's motivation.

I have met many people named Jesus as that is a very common name in Hispanic cultures. I feel a bit uncomfortable calling any human Jesus but it is simply their name and it doesn't mean I am worshiping them if I call them by their name.

Just because there are some who don't see the "giving of the medal" as a grave sin, doesn't mean they want to change religions, don't realize the past, don't believe the Bible or EGW.

I look at it this way....

That site is a site that wants to inflame adventists into doing something, anything against the pope....

And we have shown that it's information on the coin given to the pope was interpreted wrong....SDA cow-towing to the pope is really rediculous.....

How do we know that the information from this site is accurate regarding what our rep said to the pope?

The site has already shown that it is out to manipulate OUR feelings into some sort of action against the pope... What are we to do, sell our homes now, and set up camp in the mountains?

I question the site before I will critize the actions of our representative. There are too many jerks, SDA jerks at that, who want the main body of people to rashly influence our leadership for racial/fearful bias's.....

John, I will tell you again....rethink what you are posting...You are reacting to a supposed argument that is supposed to happen.... I don't know about you, but I prefer not to repeat an "Ox Bow incident"....That is, hang a man on hearsay...

Wow...who is Josie and Anna? Never heard of them before. I think you have your forums or threads mixed up.

What is it exactly that you are objecting to in what I actually posted? I did not, of course, post the link to the website in order to suggest that I believe everything on that website. The context of my posting the link is to show the medal that was given to the pope, as well as the exchange that took place between him and the SDA representative. That information is very relevant to this thread. For instance, should the SDA church give the pope a medal or call the pope by his expected "title," "The Holy Father"? This is a very important question. It is not irrelevant at all.

Neither is it irrelevant what Ellen White wrote on the topic in the Great Controversy.

All of this is apropos to the topic under discussion. I have said that I am in favor of accepting a visit by the pope to the GC. However, it is very important that we not do what other protestants are doing, which is to forget why they are protestants. I believe that we are in danger of rejecting or ignoring what Ellen White was inspired to write on this subject in books such as The Great Controversy.

Consider this important paragraph:

God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution.

Yeah, I have to say, trying to read some mysterious meaning into some of that stuff on the medallion is really pushing the envelope IMO. For example, Jesus standing on a mountain. If you look carefully, you will see that the angels surrounding Jesus are cut off by the bottom section of the coin, where the inscription Rev. 1:7 appears. That's no mountain. But aside from that, I--I myself, if I were trying to reach someone--and I do that frequently--would try to make my presentation as appealing as possible to that person. Like Paul said, I am all things to all people. If depicting Christ etc in a certain way will make the man more inclined to take the message on the medallion more seriously, I would be all for it. We don't to use an 'in your face' approach. We're trying to win people, I would think.

At the same time, I sure wouldn't invite the guy over for a public meeting or reception. After all, he is out there with an agenda. If he wanted to visit the GC, it would be for the purpose of trying to influence the GC to accept the domination of Rome. And I don't think it would be a good witness.

I don't waste time with 'conspiracy' web sites--totally hokey. I'm way too pragmatic for that. But there is enough credible info out there to make things pretty clear, I think.

Dave

Do you know of any other site on the web, or book, that shows the medal that was given to the pope or reports the exchange that took place between the pope and the SDA representative?

I would think that could be verified independently. Personally, I stay away from 'yellow journalism,' sensationalism, conspiracy theories, all that stuff. I don't even give it the time of day. Let's see evidence from a credible source. Photographic evidence would be fine, a transcript of the meeting would be fine, etc. Secondary evidence would include eyewitness accounts of the meeting, as reported in reputable media. I won't go beyond that.

At any rate, I personally think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. What's going to happen, will happen. I want to take care of my patch of garden. I trust the Master Gardener to oversee the whole vineyard. I'm a little fish.

Dave