No response. Very well. The matter does seem rather clear. Summarizing and debriefing . . . in this section, one purporting to be a defender of the faith has presented so-styled 'challenging questions to a challenger of the faith.' For educational purposes, I took the role of a challenger of the faith. Turns out that the 'challenging questions' themselves face significant challenges!

I should like to review and debrief. A fatal mistake IMO was the game plan to prove the weekly sabbath on the basis of the Ten Commandments--attempting to extrapolate the TC back to Creation, thereby 'proving' the Sabbath. The defender chose to take a stand on that hill, and he 'died' on that hill. Such a defense is open to very significant challenges, and is quite problematic. This thread has shown some of the challenges. In fact, it is not possible to 'prove' from the Bible that the Ten Commandments were known by the patriarchs. To attempt to do so is speculative, and not credible. We have the Spirit of Prophecy which tells us that, but we cannot use that source in working with non-SDA Christians. In addition, the idea that the TC predated Sinai and are part of the Christian walk today, is propounded by ONLY ONE school of thought. There are other strains.

In order to build a credible case for the weekly Sabbath for NT Christians, one must show that the Sabbath TRANSCENDS the covenants!! That is a starting point. Toward that end, it is helpful to understand the meaning of the Hebrew word 'blessed (barak1) in Gen. 2:3. The word literally signifies an empowering with prospective application. (NIDOTTE) The same word is used in ch. 1, where God blessed Adam and Eve and charged them to "be fruitful and multiply . . ." Again, the empowering for prospective application. This understanding helps clarify that the seventh day was to be a blessing PROSPECTIVELY, in the future, and not simply that first seventh day. Also helpful is an understanding of 'sanctified,' (qadash) Indeed, set apart for holy purposes, but once again, with a prospective operation. This is an important point of grammar. Continuing from that point, it is CRITICAL to etablish the validity of the Sabbath independent of the Ten Commandments.

Another key point is the 'layering' of meaning in regard to the weekly Sabbath. The first layer of meaning is independent of the covenants--that is, we rest because God rested and blessed and sanctified the day. The second layer of meaning is the Sabbath's inclusion in the moral law, the Ten Commandments. The third layer of meaning is the ritual application, and the association with the covenant between God and Israel. That ritual application was stripped away after Christ's death etc., but the underlying layers remained unchanged.

At any rate, that is enough for a start.

Dave

Permit me to continue the debriefing. Exodus 16 is the first place a weekly sabbath is commanded by God. However, there is one detail which seems important. BEFORE the command was given, ALREADY some of the people apparently were honoring the sabbath--for the leaders of the people came and told Moses. However, it seems that many of them were not aware of it. This whole passage could be taken either way. At any event, it would seem significant to point out that God's command here does not standing alone mean that no sabbath observance predated the event. A feasible explanation is that the people had been in bondage and had lost sight of much of their religious background, and needed to be reeducated.

That brings us to the Ten Commandments. Bypassing for the moment the issue of the old covenant, which is a study in itself, v. 11 of Ex. 20 is helpful in at least a couple of ways. First, of course, it points back to creation. Secondly, it says 'wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.' This fact ties together 'barak1' and 'qadash', both of which are prospective in operation. The Hebrew grammar is IMO THE crucial piece of evidence which weights the issue toward the continuity of the weekly sabbath from Creation. Thus, the seventh day sabbath was created at the creation of the world, it was intended to have prospective operation beginning on the seventh day of creation week, and it was made for man. These facts together help nail down the weekly nature of the sabbath from the beginning. Without a knowledge of the grammar issue, it is possible for a person to spiritualize the seventh day of creation week in conjunction with Heb. 4--which I did earlier on this thread. But there is an important issue of GREEK grammar in Heb. 4 which also militates against doing so. Our 'defender of the faith' missed this point, as do very many attackers of the faith! The Greek word used in Heb. 4, where it says, "There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God," is "sabbatismos" which literally means "a sabbath observance." This is HUGE. Not spiritualizing away the weekly sabbath, but affirming that there remains a sabbath OBSERVANCE for the people of God. Once again, this grammatical point is crucial to swing the weight of evidence in favor of a weekly sabbath observance for Christians.

I should like to pursue other aspects of the question soon, including the ceremonial layer of meaning and how to deal with it.

Dave

David, have you ever written a Bible study on the Sabbath in which you present it in the way you have suggested in your last few posts? Have you ever studied it with people, and if so, what kind of responses have you received? If possible, I would like to see such Bible studies. Would you care to post them here some time, at least in outline form?

Are you familiar with Carl Coffman's series of Bible studies entitled, "Unto A Perfect Man"?

I have done studies on the Sabbath using that approach. One recent study was with a graduate of a seminary which follows Calvinist teachings, and teaches source criticism as well. Intriguing study. The approach I have shared on this thread worked well. The student was convinced of the seventh-day Sabbath at the end, and was considering joining the local SDA church. I do have a DVD that presents a simplified form of the study. Would be glad to share it.

As for Coffman's series, yes, I was in his class (more than one class) and we received the soft-cover book he published, "Unto a Perfect Man." I remember it well.

Dave

Yes, I'd enjoy seeing it. Could you perhaps put on this thread a few of the major points and their Bible evidence, in answer to the questions raised here? I feel that it's likely some people reading it may not have found answers to a lot of questions raised on this thread.



You know, Elder Coffman is still alive, at least as of a few months ago. Not sure where he lives, but I think a friend of mine knows. He was one of the best and most dedicated teachers I ever had.

I'd be interested in knowing where you took his classes. Was it at PUC or Andrews U? I myself had him at PUC. He taught Bible Doctrines, Pastoral Ministry, and a wonderful class on Righteousness by Faith.

His book, "Unto a Perfect Man," is excellent, but of course Coffman never intended it to be set in concrete. He means for it to be a working outline that can be added to or changed as the teacher sees fit based on experience or on the student's needs.

It has been a few weeks since I visited this subject. Much has been happening. At this point, I should like to address the ceremonial aspects of the seventh-day Sabbath. In that regard, I submit that it is both inaccurate and counterproductive to attempt to deny that the weekly Sabbath had ceremonial meaning and aspects under the Jewish dispensation. In fact, some of the proof texts typically used by our evangelists point to that--"It shall be a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever, that they may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify them." Also, Lev. 23, where the weekly Sabbath is listed as one of the feasts of the Lord.

I would be interested to read any comments by way of response, before going any further. How about the ceremonial or cultic aspects of the weekly Sabbath?

Dave

Can anyone guess why A G Brito is posting on other websites and no longer here?

You really wanna start a thread on THAT Stan?

mel

Let's see, this is not Natter Matters, so we should stick to issues and not discuss members of the forum, etc. Correct?

As for Mr. Brito, earlier on this thread, this is what he proposed:

"Now, the bottom line is the idea that the Sabbath ended for fulfilling its "ceremonial", "antytipical" role. How about the following study in 10 points in which we prove this wrong, in the name of Jesus? If you are able to present to me a full refutation of one by one of my 10 points I promise that I will never mention this Sabbath idea to anyone, either in the Internet or other means.
Agreed?!"

Serious discussion was invited. It was carried forward. This was not billed as a forum where there was to be presentation, with no discussion or disagreement. The moderator of the section invited serious discussion and an attempt at refutation of his position statement. That was done.