#163940 - 03/31/08 08:11 AM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 150
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As I said, the clear intention of Mr. Koot is to GET RID OF THE SABBATH AT ANY COST, for the "overlapping" he talks about coincidently just "overlaps" NINE out of TEN of the Decalogue's precepts.
Jesus NEVER said anything of a new covenant that would put the Sabbath commandment aside. So, that is YOUR OPINION, my friend, YOUR INTERPRETATION of Jesus' words, to use your own language in your evaluation of my arguments.
What Jesus says regarding the Sabbath specifically is that it was made because of man, clearly setting the fact that it is an INSTITUTION FROM EDEN, as, to the chagrin of many anti-Sabbatarians, is confirmed by the three great names of the Protestant Movement--Luther, Calvin and Wesley. They could have had some stumbling on the Sabbath subject, which is understandable for the contradiction of highlighting the "Sola Scriptura" factor, while accepting the religious holiday established by Rome. But they all admitted that the Sabbath principle comes from the creation of the world.
And it is funny that you mention Romans 7:1-10. WHY STOP AT THE 10th VERSE? Why not go beyond that? How about vs. 12, 14, 22, 25 where he says that this law, that you think he is disqualifying in 2nd Corinthians 3, is holy, just, good, spiritual, and that he with his mind serves?
Why not go a little beyond and read what he also says in Rom. 8:3-8? It's very clear his language there that those who are led by the Spirit, not only reflect the righteous requirements of the law in their lives (vs. 3, 4), but won't be living according to the flesh, for the drives of flesh are not "according to the law of God", since those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
You see, the contrast is between those who do things AGAINST God's law, and those who please God, certainly doing the opposite--serving God's law, as Paul says in Rom. 7:25 using the present tense (not speaking of an old, obsolete, abolished law).
Now, regarding 2nd Corinthians 3, prove to me that the intention of Paul there was to desqualify the 10 Commandments, as no more valid and no more good to the Christian community. If Paul quoted the 5th., 6th., 7th., 8th., 9th. and 10th commandments of this supposedly DEATH LAW, how about he expanding that "overlapping" to include his respect for the 1st., 2nd. and 3rd. commandments of the same code? What do you think--these commandments enter in this "overlapping" or not? If the answer is "no", why not?
Of course THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT wouldn't "overlap" ¿verdad? The ONLY in the Decalogue that has to be discarded, not fitting to this Christian-ethics "overlapping".
Now, the "bottom line", my friend, of this "other gospel" (Gal. 1:8) of the "New Covenant Theology" is clearly TO GET RID OF THE SABBATH COMMANDMENT AT ANY COST. So, if we insist on that point, it's because we are "obsessed" with this principle. . . That kind of language is very unfair, because I CAN SAY THE SAME-- you are obsessed with getting rid of the Sabbath commandment at any cost. . . That is the most obvious thing, as we can see in this "overlapping" explanation of yours. . .
And, since ONLY the Sabbath doesn't overlap, since it was abolished for a new concept of nodayism/anydayism/everydayism, this implies that it was abolished for having fulfilled its ceremonial role.
Then, we come to the point of analyzing my study, "10 Reasons Why the Sabbath IS NOT a Ceremonial Precept".
Can you refute this study? I think that is really where all this discussion boils down to.
To make it easier for such analysis, I will even transfer it to this space at this point in this discussion.
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#163941 - 03/31/08 08:21 AM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: A_G_Brito]
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 150
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TRANSFERRED FROM PAGE 13 FOR CONTEXTUALIZATION OF DISCUSSION
10 Reasons Why the Sabbath IS NOT a Ceremonial Precept
1st. - Because it was instituted BEFORE the entrance of sin in the world (Gen. 2:2, 3; Exo. 20:8-11 and Mar. 2:27). The ceremonies represent an arrangement from AFTER sin showed up and served to provide its atonement by its symbolic value, pointing ahead to the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin from the World” (John 1:29).
2nd. - Because the Creation story stresses that God RESTED [ceased His activities of the creation week, for the Divinity doesn’t get tired] on that first Sabbath day, thus leaving an example for the being He had created (Gen. 2:3; Exo. 20:11). No ceremonial precept acquires such relevance in God’s consideration.
3rd. - Because the Creation story stresses that God BLESSED that first Sabbath day as a special mark of His approval and continuous physical, mental and spiritual benefit to those who observe it, a promise presented in many occasions throughout the Bible, as in Isaiah 56: 3-8; 58: 13, 14. Such divine blessing on the Sabbath is reminded in the commandment’s text (Exo. 20:11). There is no ceremonial precept that receives such consideration.
4th. - Because the Creation story stressed that God SANCTIFIED that first Sabbath, separating it as a memorial of His work as Creator, which is confirmed in the commandment’s text (Exo. 20:8-11). The word “sanctify” means “separate something to be consecrated to God”. Since God is already absolutely holy, to whom did He sanctify [separated] the Sabbath, but for His human creatures? It would make no sense to establish a memorial for an event at a time so far removed regarding it.
5th. - Because as He pronounced solemnly the moral law of the Ten Commandments at the Sinai mountain at the ears of the people of Israel, God included naturally the Sabbath as its 4th commandment and didn’t do the same with any of the ceremonial precepts. And as He concluded, the text says that He “added nothing more” (Deu. 5:22). Whoever adds ceremonial precepts to the Decalogue is going against what God did.
6th. - Because at the conclusion of His proclamation, God wrote those words on two stone tables, which Moses placed within the ark (Deu. 10:5). He didn’t write on those tables ANY CEREMONIAL PRECEPT. All that had ceremonial character was dictated to Moses for being recorded in books (scrolls) in another occasion.
7th. - Because God chose the Sabbath as a special sign between Himself and His chosen people (Exo. 31:17 and Eze. 20:12, 20). He wouldn’t choose for that objective a ceremonial commandment that would be abolished in the future, for His plan was that Israel always remained His chosen people and His witnesses among Earth dwellers.
8th. - Because Jesus reinforced the concept that the Sabbath was a divine institution, established “because of man” (Mar. 2:27), so that it served man in the physical, mental and spiritual aspects. No ceremonial commandment deserved such a treatment.
9th. - Because Jesus, Who is the Holy Lord and Creator (John 1:3; Heb. 1:2), gave the example of Sabbath observance (Luke 4:16) and revealed preoccupation as to its correct observance, discussing with the religious leaders about His acts of healing on that day, explaining that what He did on the Sabbath day was “lawful” (Mat. 12:12). The tenor of Christ’s discussions with the Jewish leaders was not IF they should observe the Sabbath, nor WHEN they should observe the Sabbath, but HOW to do it, in the appropriate spirit. He never revealed the same preoccupation regarding any ceremonial precept.
10th. - Because despite the ceremonies having ceased on the cross and a long discussion on their meaning is found in the New Testament, especially in Hebrews 7 to 10, the 4th commandment is never discussed as having a ceremonial character. On the contrary, in the epistle to the Hebrews itself, the Sabbath receives special treatment in the chapters 3 and 4 where it is never referred to as having ceased.
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#163978 - 03/31/08 05:08 PM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: olger]
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Swiss n Swedish American
Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 9100
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
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Roy presented a paper at the Orlando ATS meeting in `98. The paper was a treatment of Dale Ratzlaff's view of the judgement. It was a very good study.
John, I'm a member of ATS, that's how I know Roy. Good guy. I sent him an email this morning asking for a copy of his `98 paper. I think it may have been printed in the Perspective Digest as well.
oG When you get this study Olger ... could you share it with us ... or a link?
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Love WON Another.
Redwood the tree
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#163993 - 03/31/08 06:33 PM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: David Koot]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10453
Loc: CA
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As for the weekly Sabbath . . . It was THE FOCAL POINT of Jewish life under the Old Covenant. But under the New Covenant, CHRIST is the focus, CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH! At what historical point, on this view, did Christ become our Sabbath under the New Covenant?
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#164118 - 04/01/08 05:35 AM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: olger]
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Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 150
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"As for the weekly Sabbath . . . It was THE FOCAL POINT of Jewish life under the Old Covenant. But under the New Covenant, CHRIST is the focus, CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH!"
Hi Dave. This statement of yours troubles me by association. It is the vanguard statement of Pentecostals to disregard the observance of God's Sabbath. I know this from personal experience.
regards,
oG This "Jesus sloganeering" to get rid of the Sabbath commandment is a mere smokescreen to justify the neglect in obeying a clear commandment of God. The fact is that these people ignore that the refence-point of the Sabbath is the creation of the Earth, so it has no Jewish roots. Were Adam and Eve Jews?! Well, another thing this people should think seriously about is that when Jesus comes, many of those who resort to this Jesus-sloganeering-for-Sabbath-neglect attitude will not even be recognized by Christ, although some can claim even the performance of miracles (Matt. 7:21-23). And what Jesus will say to them is--"Depart from Me, you transgressors of the law". Yes, the word that in many of our Bibles was translated as "iniquity" is in the Greek original anomian, the same that in 1 John 3:4 is translated as "transgression of the law". Thus, "sin is the transgression of the law- anomian". Then, it is clear, from a grammatical perspective, that we can present this point, that Jesus will address many of these "Jesus sloganeering" folks with these terrible words. They better pay serious attention to this linguistic detail.
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#164121 - 04/01/08 06:14 AM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: A_G_Brito]
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Swiss n Swedish American
Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 9100
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
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They better pay serious attention to this linguistic detail. Is there a threat build into this. Are we required to have "linguistic" abilities? Do you ever allow for diversity of thought? Is it just possible that you might not understand every word of scripture? Please answer this .... are all of us who with the very best intelligence that God has given us and the power of the Holy Spirit and "it's" best linguistic abilities .... are we lost unless we interpret things as you have? I am curious as to your answer ... I await humbly .... REDWOOD
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Love WON Another.
Redwood the tree
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#164132 - 04/01/08 06:59 AM
Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
[Re: A_G_Brito]
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Craftsman
Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
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As I said, the clear intention of Mr. Koot is to GET RID OF THE SABBATH AT ANY COST, for the "overlapping" he talks about coincidently just "overlaps" NINE out of TEN of the Decalogue's precepts. I have not stated that. You are making assumptions here.
Jesus NEVER said anything of a new covenant that would put the Sabbath commandment aside.
Jesus DID speak of a new covenant. Jesus DID speak of a new law for His followers. The new law does not make reference to a sabbath day. Its focus is love. He says to love God and love your neighbor. (1) A sabbath day observance is not mentioned there. (2) Jesus' apostles DID speak about sabbath observance, as follows: Colossians 2:16,17: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Here we see ALL THREE TYPES of the Jews' observances: The festivals (also called 'sabbaths' by the way--'shabbatati'), which occurred several times a year; the new moons, which occurred monthly; and the weekly sabbath day. "The REALITY IS FOUND IN CHRIST!!!!" Hence, Christ is our Sabbath. Galatians 4:10: "You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!" (Similar list to Colossians) Romans 14:5: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike." Thus, if a person CHOOSES to treat a sabbath as sacred, he can do so. But another may choose not to. It is okay for both. "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." In reference to the weekly sabbath of the OT pointing forward to Christ, and Christ being our true Sabbath, note Hebrews 4:p: "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His." Thus we see the OT sabbath as an illustration of the state of spiritual rest in which we rest from our own works, trusting instead in the merits of Jesus. How many days a week should we rest from our own work? EVERY DAY!! EVERY DAY, praise the Lord!! CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH REST, EVERY DAY!! But like the old Jews, some people get hung up in the type, in the illustration, instead of rejoicing in the spiritual reality of resting daily from our own works, safe in Jesus. Judaizers, is a term found in the NT.
What Jesus says regarding the Sabbath specifically is that it was made because of man,
Indeed, later in Exodus, and in Deuteronomy, God makes reference to the Egyptian bondage, and states THAT as a reason for giving the weekly sabbath to the Jews. It was a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt, just as the TRUE Sabbath rest, the daily rest from our own works, is a constant reminder of our deliverance from bondage to satan on Calvary. Once again, move from the old testament symbol to the SPIRITUAL REALITY IN CHRIST! Don't get hung up on the type.
clearly setting the fact that it is an INSTITUTION FROM EDEN,
Jesus did not say that here. The weekly sabbath was commanded at Mt. Sinai. It had not been commanded or kept before that. Evidence? Moses had to teach the people about it. At Mt. Sinai, God changed many things: their diet, their lifestyle, and gave them a weekly sabbath to remind them of being set free from bondage. But they all admitted that the Sabbath principle comes from the creation of the world. They also recognized that that sabbath principle is fulfilled in the spiritual rest in Christ. Calvin and Luther in particular were concerned about Judaizing. Calvin objected to the observance of one day, any day in seven, as Judaizing. The ORIGIN of the sabbath concept is not at issue here. It is the FULFILLMENT of the sabbath concept in the lives of Christians today which they dealt with. Christ is our Sabbath, and EVERY DAY we rest from our own works, by God's grace! It is late now, and I must stop here. Will continue tomorrow when I have time. Dave
_________________________
"Study to show yourself approved by God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15
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