But what John said could also be translated "Behold the Lamb of God that scapegoats the sins of the world."

The cross only atonement fits the reformer's use of the word atonement. But the Hebrew word "Kipper" means ANYTHING AT ANY TIME WHERE GOD REVEALS MORE ABOUT HIMSELF IN A SPECIAL WAY. and to try to fit Kipper to the cross only would requre God to be absolutely and totally passive except for that one event. God could never have had the birth of Jesus, never have the teaching ministry of Jesus, never have penticost, never have Saul converted on the road, never have prophets in the past, never have Luther have his 91 thesis, never have any discoveries in the Bible, because all of these events are ways how God reveals more information about himself. And any information revealing is a Kipper.

Anything else required God to be totally passive.

What the reformers refered to as Atonement is indeed the cross only event and does not fit the investigative judgment. But the idea of a kipper does fit. You are insisting the the ONLY proper use of the word Atonement is what Luther meant when he used the word. You do not allow for the meaning of the Hebrew word Kipper.

You still insist that I'm using a furry creature in working with my computer, and that the word "mouse" could not mean anything else except the furry creature.

I am not playing with words Kevin. A careful reading of Hebrews makes plain how all the animal sacrifices pointed to Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world as the Lamb of God. As far as the so-called mediatorial work of Jesus that must have been going on since Adam's time. There were no more "Holy Place" rituals after the cross on earth or in Heaven The tearing of the curtain showed that.

I dont find Kipper in my Bible but Wikopedia says it's a Herring...a red herrring. :-)

mel

Yes, you're right, of course. They all prefigured the death of Christ.



The Bible gives us no reason to believe that Christ could be the mediator until He shed His blood. How could He apply the blood of His sacrifice before the sacrifice was even made? Christ is first the sacrifice, then the High Priest, then the coming King. He doesn't occupy all of those roles at the same time. For instance, when He comes as King, He will no longer be High Priest. It was necessary that He be sacrificed before He could be our High Priest. While He lived on this earth as a human being, Jesus was not our High Priest, nor was He then our Judge.



The tearing of the curtain showed that the animal sacrifices were no longer necessary since the type had been fulfilled in the antitypical sacrifice of Jesus. But it clearly did not signify that there was no more work to be done in the heavenly sanctuary. Hebrews 8: 2 says that Jesus is now a "Minister of the [heavenly] sanctuary." He is mediating the better covenant and better promises. Hebrews 9: 24 speaks of the blood of Christ cleansing or purifying the heavenly things. What is it in heaven that needs cleansing? Could it be that God's reputation and the reputation of His church and His people has been desecrated and thus need "purifying" or set right?

The apostle John saw something important going on the temple of God in heaven. It was opened and John saw the ark of the covenant there. (Rev. 11: 19) As you study the book of Revelation, you will notice that all of God's salvific activity for man originates from the sanctuary. Therefore, it is plain that the activities taking place in the Holy Place in heaven are not empty rituals but are filled with great meaning for us. You will find some of these activities described in Daniel 7: 21-27; Rev. 4 and 19. It is owing to Christ's mediating work in the Heavenly sanctuary that the Lamb's wife makes herself ready so Jesus can come for her (Rev. 19: 7). When He comes at that time, He will no longer be the mediator or High Priest, for the Scriptures teach that He won't be coming to deal with sin but will be coming for those who are eagerly waiting for Him. The sin problem will then already have been dealt with (Heb. 9: 28), and the decision will also then already have been made as to who is going to be saved in God's kingdom. That is what is going on now in the heavenly sanctuary above. The lives of all who have ever accepted Christ as their Savior are being examined. Adventists call it "the Investigative Judgment," but it is simply the judgment that takes place before Christ returns in order to gather His people to Him and "give to every one according to his work" (Rev. 22: 12).

John, you yourself said that Hebrews is not to be taken literally, and then you turn around and say that it favors the IJ view because some of it is literal and not symbolic like other parts. How do you make that distinction.

Here's the problem I see. You can't start with a faith assumption and then fit the Bible to your faith assumption... twisting the arms. Can you provide any verses that we are being investigated TODAY by JESUS HIMSELF... and that the work of atonement was not complete on the cross?

Yes, in the OT the atonement was performed by sprinkling of the blood on the altar. All of it was pointing to the cross.

Where is the throne of God located :)? It is symbolized by the mercy seat of course. IT IS IN THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY! So when Jesus entered heaven he went to the right hand of the father in the Holiest of the Holies. From hebrews writer....


And behind the second veil, there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant. And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.



In Romans 5:11 is a clear picture of atonement:

1Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

That word "reconciliation" is word for atonement. To atone for means to make amends, and therefore to reconcile. Some translate atonement as "propitiation for the sins". How many times you read that THROUGH HIS DEATH WE ARE RECONCILED? Death is the scriptural atonement. So, what is Christ doing in Heaven?

Heb 9:15 "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

1 Tim 2:5-6 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time."

Romans 8:33-34 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died – more than that, who was raised to life – is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.


Some people point to Heb 2:17-18 ( In NIV too) to make their case for unfinished atonement.

17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[a]the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.


They say, "if the Christ might make atonement, then it is in the future...". :) Read it again in YLT version, or American Standard. The "in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God", can not be separated from "nd that he might make atonement for[a]the sins of the people." Was Jesus Merciful and faithful high priest on Earth? YES! Did he make atonement (amends) for people's sins at the cross? YES! He paid the highest price, what else is there left to pay?

As far as Jesus judging our works now... it's ludicrous! He judged our works from the very beginning! He knew who would fail and who would make it from the beginning! To say that he needs to wait and figure that part out is to minimize His omnipotence. He knows already! Investigative Judgement is nowhere to be found in scripture. Let's not twist Scripture's arm here:


30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

What is that day? Second coming of course, not 1844! Who will Judge? God through His Son will judge... Judgment is not something that God waited to do till 1844 to begin doing! HE KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING. It's not something that takes Him by surprise and he has to now figure out who will be a good or bad guy (like Santa making his list). He already knows. The language of judgment is for OUR UNDERSTANDING. That we may not take salvation lightly.

He could have made it in a snap, do you think it will take him 200 years to judge? It's very naive view of God, and it is not essential for salvation experience to make a 20 point doctrine out of it.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me if you believe that I don't think we should take the book of Hebrews literally. I've never said that it is a mistake to take the book of Hebrews literally. Could you copy and paste the statement I have written which you interpreted to mean that Hebrews per se is not to be taken literally?

Of course you have to use common sense when it comes to understanding it, just like with the books of Daniel and Revelation. For instance, we don't take Jesus to be literally a little lamb, nor do we believe that Jesus literally has a two-edged sword proceeding out of his mouth.

Do you find it confusing to realize that some parts are symbolic and other parts literal? For instance, it says that God is speaking to us through His Son, and then it says that His Son "sat down at the right hand" of the Father. Does that mean Jesus is literally God's Son; that is, that God produced His Son like we produce our sons? And, again, when it says that Jesus "sat down" at God's "right hand," does it mean that Jesus literally sat down on a chair at the right hand of God and that Jesus has been sitting there all these nearly 2000 years? No, of course not.

Do you believe that there is a literal, real sanctuary in heaven?

I do. Why? Because the Bible says there is, very plainly. Moses was literally shown a pattern of it and told to build the earthly sanctuary based on those plans or patterns. Both the book of Hebrews and the book of Revelation teach that there is a sanctuary in heaven. The apostle John tells us that he saw it. Hebrews says that Jesus is a mediator or minister there in the heavenly sanctuary.

I've haven't slept since early yesterday morning, so I have to go to bed now but will be up in the morning to continue this conversation. In the meantime tell me what you believe about the sanctuary, the IJ, and whether you have studied and know and understand what Ellen White has written about it, particularly in GC.

Let me know if you have any pictures to send me. I'd like to see some.

I have quite a few at this link if you care to look: http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...id_R#Post169068

Sure. Rev. 2: 23, for starters. The Greek word for "searches" is ereunao which means "investigates." It is the word used when describing the work police do in investigating a crime or suspect. The word is in the present tense which means that it is ongoing. The verse reads, "All the churches shall know that I am He who investigates minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works."

Notice that this verse is talking about the investigation or examination of Christians. It is not talking specifically to those who have never made a profession of faith in Christ.

Now notice also Ps. 11: 4, 5; and study closely Daniel 7 and 8.

Ps. 11: 4,5 shows the investigation coming from God's temple or sanctuary, which is where his throne is. Observe that in Daniel 7, God's throne has wheels and is movable. Just before the judgment begins, God's throne moves somewhere and then He waits for Someone to appear. That would, of course, be Jesus Christ.

I will write much more on this topic later in the day, and will reply also to the rest of your post.

PS. It helps to realize that God and Christ don't need to investigate in order to learn anything. Why then the process of investigation?

Do you have, or have you studied, the Daniel & Revelation Committee Series, which consists of about 8 volumes altogether? You can purchase these at the SDA book center.

There's also an excellent book titled The Silencing of Satan The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment by Bradley R. Williams. It explores the Biblical evidence for the Investigative Judgment. It is one of the best books of its kind, and is only about 150 pages. http://investigativejudgmentgospel.org/My_Homepage_Files/Page1.html

You would do well to study books by John T. Anderson (Investigating the Judgment); Roy Gane (Who's Afraid of the Judgment?); Clifford Goldstein (1844 Made Simple; Graffiti in the Holy of Holies); Gerhard Pfandl (Daniel the Seer of Babylon); and C. Mervyn Maxwell (God Cares, Vol. 1 and 2).

There are many other good books that help answer your questions.

We probably agree as to Jesus being now in Heaven "inerceding in our behalf" (altho I do not understand why there is any need for that), Where we differ is that I believe that Jesus has been in that position since He returned to Heaven after the cross. I see nowhere that says or even hints that he went into some Heavenly "first apartment" situation. The dividing curtain was torn. There were no more first apartment services.

Who would you say was interceding for the human race from Adam to the cross if it was not Christ?

And while we are on the subject do you understand why anyone needs to intercede? Does not the Father love us too?.......mel

Mel:
The investagative judgment is not Jesus stopping his intercession (and by the way, in Exodus 19 and in Revelation we learn the Biblical direction. The midevil church had people to the priest to the saints to Mary to Jesus to the Father. The reformers took this model and just had people to Jesus to the Father. But Both Exodus and Revelation has it The Father through God as personal friend [Jesus] and the Holy Spirit as well as sometimes allowing Angels to join in, through prophets and apostles and their writings, to the church to the world.)

Jesus died for all created beings and is working to develop the entire universe into wanting to be in relationship with God through all eternity. By adding to the intercession as on the heavenly level it is a review of what a relationship with Christ can do for people, and on earth an explosion of Biblical knowlege like we've never known before. More knowlege about the Bible can lead to more knowlege about God, and as we learn more of these things, we can become more like Him as beholding we become changed.

Unfortunetely you have liberals studying the Bible seriously but who do not take it serious. And you have conservatives who take the Bible seriously but study it superficially and are more focused on their traditions than on the Bible.

By the way, let me talk a little bit more about intercession. I'll start with a thesis that Jesus interceeded the moment a creature was created.

God is infinite: Outside of time and space. Too big for finite minds to comprehend. So God revealed God's self inside of time and space. God had to teach about being the great ruler of the universe and creator, so we have God the Father. But if this was all we knew of God it would be too powerful and scary and would be worshiped out of fear, and what is of fear is not of love. God the Father is necessary but not sufficient. So God also reveals that God is our friend, one of us. To the Angels they saw another angel. Beings on other planets saw one of them. If there was to have been a litteral Narnia, with talking animals they would see Aslan, to Abraham he appeared as a man traveling, until he took one form that he would keep for the rest of eternity, the man Jesus. But if this was the only revelation we had of God, we would think that he was a good buddy but that my opinion is as good as his. So both manisfestations were necessary but insufficient.

Even the two are necessary but continues insufficient as they are only objective revelations of the infinite God. Created beings are both objective and subjective. And God needed to also reveal his working with our subjective expirence, so we have the Holy Spirit.

Only the three revelations/manifestations of three aspects of the one infinite God are both necessary and sufficient (notice I did NOT say complete)

The entire trinity has rolls of interceeding to lead us into a relationship with the infinite God. They are how God is revealed in a way human minds can understand and relate. And intercession is from God to created beings, not created beings to God.

JOHN 3
I think that it is sin itself that cannot exist in the presence of God, and therefore, if we refuse to give up our sins, we will also be destroyed in God's presence when God comes to judge sin. .......... I think of the destruction of the wicked as God throwing open the gates to the City and inviting all humanity to enter in, but the wicked cannot survive in His glorious, life-giving presence.


I have had many discussions about the destruction of the wicked. As an 'old' adventist I was raised on the "God destroys the wicked with fire". Through the years I have heard the "God does not kill" but I had a hard time with that because I want justice. BUT I am not too old to be open- minded, so after reading the above statements I had a thought.

God's Glory destroys the wicked, and it isn't a lightning bolt out of heaven that He physically throws at the wicked to 'kill' them but His glorious presence, His aura. So maybe the reason Jesus stays in heaven on a cloud when He comes to take home the rightous, is to protect the wicked that are raised, from dying the Eternal death at that time. Now stay with me, I'm on a roll. It won't hurt the sinless to be in His Glory, so they are brought UP to meet Him and the sinners do not get the FULL benefit of God's Glory as they have a while to wait befor Jesus 3rd coming.

Sooooooooo when John 3 made the statement about Jesus opening the city gates and inviting the wicked in, that gave me chills. I now have a totally different place to go about Jesus' love for EVERYONE! Jesus' last defining declaration to the wicked is his "opening the city gates" and beckoning them with open arms into His kingdom. However, they cannot live in the Glory of His presence and are consumed in their sins. Of course after all the wicked have died, then God brings fire out of heaven to completely cleanse the earth and make it new again. That cleansing also burns up the lifeless bodies of the wicked.

I really like my idea so don't mess with it.