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#169006 - 05/01/08 03:04 AM Police take kids from apocalyptic church
Amelia Administrator Offline
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Police take kids from apocalyptic church

Leader of dozens in New Mexico claims to be Messiah; no charges filed

The Associated Press
April. 30, 2008

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - State police have removed three children from an apocalyptic church whose leader claims to be the Messiah and acknowledges having sex with some of his followers.

The two girls and one boy — all under the age of 18 — were taken from the northeastern New Mexico compound following an April 22 investigation, Romaine Serna, spokeswoman for the state Children, Youth and Families Department, said Wednesday.

She said a fourth child, a girl, agreed to be interviewed by the department. Serna said that girl had been at the compound but now lives elsewhere with her parents.

The three children were taken into state custody because of allegations of inappropriate contact between minors and the adult leader of The Lord Our Righteousness Church, Serna said.

"I understand that it was very calm and they (state police) did not meet with any resistance," she said. Serna said she wasn't aware of any other youths at the compound.

Serna declined to elaborate because of the ongoing investigation by state police and the district attorney's office. No charges had been filed, she said.

Wayne Bent, who is in his 60s and is known in the church as Michael Travesser, established the church at a rural site called Strong City, north of Clayton in northeastern New Mexico. It has at least 70 members, Serna said.

'My children are kidnapped'
Bent, on an April 27 posting on the church's Web site, accused the state of kidnapping the children. "My children are kidnapped because some demon wrote a letter to people in authority accusing me of some crimes," he wrote.

"When the state came against our children (seed), the state came against God, and this will NOT ever be forgiven them," he wrote.

In a lengthy discussion dated Sept. 11, 2007, Bent said his work is finished and he does not expect to be "in the earthly sphere" much longer.

He acknowledged having sex with three women — the wives of two of his followers and his daughter in law. He said it was at the direction of God and the instigation of the women.

Jeff Bent, who Serna said is Wayne Bent's son, denied in an April 29 letter to Gov. Bill Richardson and posted on the Web site that any child had been abused or neglected at Strong City.

The group educates its children "to avoid the slavery you seek to impose on them, and to experience the freedom they have in God," Jeff Bent wrote.


'We have taught them higher values'
"We have given everything to prepare them for an eternity with God. We haven't oppressed them with your atheistic globalist curriculum, socialist indoctrination, and 'alternative lifestyles' dogma that comprise modern public education. We have taught them higher values than the values of your slave-state, and have sought to shield them from the abuse that is institutionalized in your system," he wrote.

Serna said two of the children were placed in foster homes, and the other accepted voluntary placement, which usually means with a friend or relative.

Serna said her agency received information on April 21 that warranted the removal of the children. She declined to reveal the information or its source.

The New Mexico removal came three weeks after Texas officials raided a polygamist-sect ranch and took custody of 463 children, saying that group's practice of underage and polygamous spiritual marriages endangered the children.
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#169018 - 05/01/08 04:01 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Amelia]
Gladussee Offline
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I notice that the report quoted did not mention the strong Seventh-day Adventist backgrounds of both Wayne Bent and his followers.

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#169028 - 05/01/08 04:42 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Amelia]
Amelia Administrator Offline
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My Escape From Adventist Hell

By Amana | Tuesday, April 29, 2008

This is my personal experience with sexual perversion in higher places and with child protective services.

Almost twenty years ago, my husband and I left the Seventh-day Adventist church. Just before we left, we were the janitors of the church that we attended. One night we happened to show up at the church to do something and there was a private baptism going on. The man being baptized was an ordained minister of the Seventh-day Adventist church. While he was in office he had molested his daughter, whom he and his wife had adopted while doing missionary work in a poor country. We knew the story at the time. Wanting a better life for her, the mother of the little girl had given her daughter to this minister and his wife to raise.

http://strongcity.info/LOR/sc/post/my_escape_from_adventist_hell/#more-1419
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#169040 - 05/01/08 06:11 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Amelia]
Taylor Offline


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Wow this guy is WEIRD!

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#169051 - 05/01/08 07:29 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Taylor]
LynnDel Offline
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I know some of these people. I have wondered for years how long it would take for the state to step in. Wayne Bent left the church years ago (if I remember correctly), and his beliefs have gotten stranger and stranger.
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#169180 - 05/02/08 03:47 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: LynnDel]
Taylor Offline


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Loc: CA
No kidding they are strange! Wow! How people follow someone like Wayne is amazing to me!

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#169184 - 05/02/08 04:05 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Taylor]
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People are desperate for spiritual leadership and are willing to follow those who will lead.
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#169185 - 05/02/08 04:11 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Stan Jensen]
Neil D Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
People are desperate for spiritual leadership and are willing to follow those who will lead.


I tend to think that there are some who are called to leadership, but refuse to follow [for whatever reasons, ie unable to decipher the signs that God is calling them, desirious of remaining humble, etc. ] and the masses, desperate for spiritual leadership, will follow someone who is obviously a "kook" [notice, I did NOT say "KooT"!]
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#169189 - 05/02/08 06:00 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Neil D]
Taylor Offline


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ROFL! Glad you defined that Neil that it is a kook not a Koot. :)

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#169231 - 05/03/08 04:40 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Taylor]
cardw Offline


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Here is a inside look at this cult from a Firefly, a British documentary team and following is a 2 hour video response which is even more bizarre. You might want to skip farther in to hear the women talk about why they needed to "consummate" their relationship with Wayne Bent.

For further information, the BBC documentary can be viewed here:

End of the World Cult Documentary

Strongcity's documentary can be viewed here:

Strong City's response video

To me this is a partial look into the process of how our church came into being based on a disappointment, a young prophetess, and what I believe is a similar type of need to believe in something even though all the evidence points otherwise.

As I have studied this cult there is evidence that the way Adventists have been taught to believe in Ellen White and the Bible sets them up for these types of off shoots that portray themselves as the non-fallen Adventist church that follows Ellen White more closely and has the so called modern gift of prophecy.

Obviously this group has gone far beyond Ellen White, but the methods of control that appeal to the ego, such as we are the chosen ones, we have a greater knowledge, and therefore a greater responsibility, are much the same.

I can see why a 19 year old Ellen White might become caught up into believing that she had special knowledge and gifts in an atmosphere of disappointment and shame after watching the interviews with the young women of this particular cult.
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#169240 - 05/03/08 05:53 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
Taylor Offline


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With all kindness, any comparison between EGW and this weirdo, sexually perverted guy is circumstancial. I am sure Wayne has worn shirts and socks and we all have worn shirts and socks but that doesn't mean we are like him.

Sure there are some SDA's who have been caught up in this (including him that used to be an SDA), and that is sad but it isn't because of our history it is because our church is a hospital for sinners not a country club for saints and when you are a hospital you have all kinds of "diseases" to deal with of strange people who might be in need of the psychiatric department of the hospital or something.

I agree there are some STRANGE SDA's out there but this Wayne Bent goes far beyond strange and anyone who would go along with him has to be under some type of influence as what he believes flies in the face of Biblical teachings no matter how much he tries to construe it to fit his perverted views. I am so glad the kids are now safe from this man. You are perfectly granted the right to take issue with EGW and that is fine but she was not sexually perverted, she didn't abuse kids, nor did she have multiple partners nor think she was Jesus. This guy is incredibly weird!

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#169246 - 05/03/08 07:09 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Taylor]
cardw Offline


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Quote:
With all kindness, any comparison between EGW and this weirdo, sexually perverted guy is circumstancial.


You need to read my post more carefully. I did not make a direct association with Wayne and EGW. This is what I DID say...

Quote:
Obviously this group has gone far beyond Ellen White, but the methods of control that appeal to the ego, such as we are the chosen ones, we have a greater knowledge, and therefore a greater responsibility, are much the same.


There are a number of contributing factors that are brought forth by Ellen White in her writings.

1) A painful practice of introspection. Simply read just about any Ellen White for a few pages and you'll come across this.

2) The teaching of an impending doom that requires urgency, loyalty, and unquestioning faith to survive.

3) Teaching people to ignore doubts because their nature is evil and not to be trusted.

4) Making low self esteem a virtue.

5) The overemphasis of the respect for authority within the organization.

6) A strong emphasis on the organization and its goals over the individual.

7) Systems of belief that keep people never good enough.


The few ways to get relief from these systems is to either let go of these beliefs and develop a non shame motivational core or to become some form of god yourself or to have someone in authority pronounce you worthy or the way most people do is to pick and choose some combination of beliefs.

This is why early forms of Adventist teaching and culture produced groups like those present at Strong City and were at Waco. They are the ultimate outcome of these systems of belief when people don't make their way out through alternatives.

Before Wayne Bent announced his Messiahship he had led these people into a community by promising them that he had a system to help them perfect their characters so they could be ready for the close of probation. This is right out of the Ellen White play book. His visionary and prophetic experiences are also very similar. While Ellen White did not claim to have a system to directly perfect one's character, she did say that it would be required so that we could stand before god without a mediator.

I know there are all kinds of complicated apologetics for this, but the simple answer is that she was creating all these ideas so that she could survive the shame of investing in William Miller's teachings. This created an atmosphere where there was always one more thing and if we work hard god will take us home to paradise.

Fortunately today this is not the majority experience of most Adventists, but in the past this was not true. You would find far more similar affects among Adventist believers that appeared much like those in the Strong City cult.
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#169249 - 05/03/08 07:25 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
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#169259 - 05/03/08 09:44 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: LynnDel]
Taylor Offline


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Ok Richard. I don't want to try to discredit you. But I still don't see EGW as controlling or anything in her teachings like this guy's teachings. I know you said he went FAR beyong anything she ever did or taught but I just don't see why her name even needs to come up, but then I don't see things the way you do, but yes we agree on one thing, this guy is nuts. :)

Maybe you don't see anything as absolute truth, but liquid depending on what an individual thinks or experiences. I agree there is a lot more grey than our "early church leaders" may have taught or believed but that doesn't take away that God's Word does have some clear black and whites.

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#169261 - 05/03/08 02:00 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
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The difference is that EGW did not sleep with all the men in the church. She told each and all that the Bible is the book to follow not her. I personally did not see any similarity's. I don't think that the Adventist Church is perfect by far. But neither are any other church. But I do believe that we follow the Bible princible's closer that any other Christian Church. Again we are not perfect. And I know as for me I am not a perfect Christian by no means, but only through Jesus I am.

Shabbat Shalom,
pkrause

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#169264 - 05/03/08 03:48 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
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Originally Posted By: cardw
....Obviously this group has gone far beyond Ellen White, but the methods of control that appeal to the ego, such as we are the chosen ones, we have a greater knowledge, and therefore a greater responsibility, are much the same.

I can see why a 19 year old Ellen White might become caught up into believing that she had special knowledge and gifts in an atmosphere of disappointment and shame after watching the interviews with the young women of this particular cult.


It should be mentioned that everything that group is doing, and that leader is doing, is opposed to what both the Bible and Ellen White say to do.

It's impossible to explain the rise of the SDA church and Ellen White's life and teachings simply on the basis that Ellen White got "caught up" into believing something that was not true.

Check out Dramatic Prophecies of Ellen White by Herbert Edgar Douglass, and read the well-documented biography of Ellen White by Arthur White. Is it reasonable to believe that all this happened because Ellen White was under some kind of illusion?
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#169266 - 05/03/08 04:18 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 6490
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: cardw
Quote:
...There are a number of contributing factors that are brought forth by Ellen White in her writings.

1) A painful practice of introspection. Simply read just about any Ellen White for a few pages and you'll come across this.
Could you give one or two examples of what you are referring to?

[quote] 2) The teaching of an impending doom that requires urgency, loyalty, and unquestioning faith to survive.

3) Teaching people to ignore doubts because their nature is evil and not to be trusted.


The same criticisms are made of the Bible. There's nothing along these lines in Ellen White that cannot also be found in the Bible.

Quote:
4) Making low self esteem a virtue.


Ellen White did not have low self-esteem; and rightly understood, neither the Bible nor Ellen White favor low self-esteem. I can see how someone can think they do, but they're misreading and misinterpreting what both those sources are saying. There is also such a thing as false esteem. I think that if we really believe and understand that God loves us and that Christ died in order to save us, we can't continue for long to have low self-esteem. In fact, it should heighten our true self-esteem-- to the point where we won't let anyone exploit or use or abuse us.

Quote:
5) The overemphasis of the respect for authority within the organization.

6) A strong emphasis on the organization and its goals over the individual.

7) Systems of belief that keep people never good enough.


Again, the same criticisms made of Ellen White's writing on these matters can be, and are, leveled against the Bible itself.

I think it's good to talk about things, but we need to remember that the wrongs we see in examples such as David Koresh and Wayne Bent are extremes. Good things are bad when taken to extreme. It's called fanaticism.

Quote:
The few ways to get relief from these systems is to either let go of these beliefs and develop a non shame motivational core or to become some form of god yourself or to have someone in authority pronounce you worthy or the way most people do is to pick and choose some combination of beliefs.

This is why early forms of Adventist teaching and culture produced groups like those present at Strong City and were at Waco. They are the ultimate outcome of these systems of belief when people don't make their way out through alternatives.

Before Wayne Bent announced his Messiahship he had led these people into a community by promising them that he had a system to help them perfect their characters so they could be ready for the close of probation. This is right out of the Ellen White play book. His visionary and prophetic experiences are also very similar. While Ellen White did not claim to have a system to directly perfect one's character, she did say that it would be required so that we could stand before god without a mediator.

I know there are all kinds of complicated apologetics for this, but the simple answer is that she was creating all these ideas so that she could survive the shame of investing in William Miller's teachings. This created an atmosphere where there was always one more thing and if we work hard god will take us home to paradise.

Fortunately today this is not the majority experience of most Adventists, but in the past this was not true. You would find far more similar affects among Adventist believers that appeared much like those in the Strong City cult.


Interesting analysis. You have some good points, I think. I see the cults as taking something that was good and using it in a way that makes those good things into something evil. That is what David Koresh and Jim Jones did.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#169274 - 05/03/08 05:24 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
Neil D Offline
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Quote:
To me this is a partial look into the process of how our church came into being based on a disappointment, a young prophetess, and what I believe is a similar type of need to believe in something even though all the evidence points otherwise.


Hmmmmmm.......

Obviously, you are thinking that 1844 not only was a disappointment, but also a false interpretation...Because, if the prophecys regarding 1844 are incorrect, then there is no need for a prophetess/guide... Correct me if I am misinterpreting you here....

Assuming that is the case, how do you interprete Daniel? Literally, figuratively, prophectically? How?


Edited by Neil D (05/03/08 05:25 PM)
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#169275 - 05/03/08 05:31 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Gladussee]
Neil D Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gladussee
I notice that the report quoted did not mention the strong Seventh-day Adventist backgrounds of both Wayne Bent and his followers.


My question for this is why does the SDA church produce such ultra conservative dysfunctional people? Why do people suspend belief in God, and superimpose a human who claims to be divinity/humanity combined? We already have that in the form of Jesus Christ.....
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#169280 - 05/03/08 06:08 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Neil D]
LynnDel Offline
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Quote:
My question for this is why does the SDA church produce such ultra conservative dysfunctional people?


I don't think it's so much that the church produces such people, but it attracts such people. Take a look at any group of people who tend to lean toward either end of a liberal-conservative spectrum, and you will find kooks.
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#169284 - 05/03/08 08:36 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: LynnDel]
Amelia Administrator Offline
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Maybe I just don't know where to look. But I've never seen weird Baptist offshoot sects. Or strange Presbyterian offshoot cults.
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#169287 - 05/03/08 09:08 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Amelia]
John317 Offline


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Originally Posted By: Amelia
Maybe I just don't know where to look. But I've never seen weird Baptist offshoot sects. Or strange Presbyterian offshoot cults.


Ever heard of Jim Jones? What "produced" him?

Check out this info:

"Jones began his own church, named the Community Unity Church (after being exposed to the Seventh-day Baptist church). In 1955, he renamed it the church Wings of Deliverance, and later that year the Peoples Temple Full Gospel Church. In 1959 the church joined the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), and Jones renamed it the Peoples Temple Christian Church Full Gospel. Jones sold pet monkeys door-to-door to raise the money to fund his church.

Jones purported to preach what he called "apostolic socialism." In doing so, the Temple openly preached to established members that "relgion is an opiate of the people." Accordingly, "those who remained drugged with the opiate of religion had to be brought to enlightenment -- socialism." In that regard, Jones also openly stated that he "took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism." Jones often mixed those concepts, such as preaching that "If you're born in this church, this socialist revolution, you're not born in sin. If you're born in capitalist America, racist America, fascist America, then you're born in sin. But if you're born in socialism, you're not born in sin."

In 1961, Jones helped to integrate churches, restaurants, the telephone company, the police department, a theater, an amusement park, and the Methodist Hospital and became the executive director of the Indianapolis Human Rights Commission.

Jones received considerable criticism in Indiana for his integrationist views. In 1965, Jones left Indiana, moving the Peoples Temple to Redwood Valley, California based, in part, on Jones' belief that it would be a more safe location if nuclear war were to occur.

Jones also authored a booklet he would distribute in the Temple titled "The Letter Killeth" pointing out what he felt were the contradictions, absurdities, and atrocities in the Bible, but also stating that the Bible contained great truths. He was particularly fascinated with his ability to manipulate people. Jones perfected his craft and was very skilled in his new found talent. He claimed to be an incarnation of Jesus, Akhenaten, the Buddha, Lenin, and Father Divine and performed supposed miracle healings to attract new converts. Members of Jones' church called him "Father" and believed their movement was the solution to the problems of society; many did not distinguish Jones from the movement.

Unlike most other figures deemed as cult leaders, Jones enjoyed public support and contact with some of the highest level politicians in the United States. For example, in the heat of the 1976 Presidential Campaign, Jones met with Vice Presidential Candidate Walter Mondale on his campaign plane. Likewise, First Lady Rosalynn Carter personally met Jones for a private dinner at the Stanford Court Hotel. Mrs. Carter later called Jones personally. In the 1976 grand opening of the San Francisco Democratic Party Headquarters, Jones packed the audience with Temple members and garnered louder applause when he spoke than Mrs. Carter. Governor Jerry Brown, Lieutenant Govenor Mervyn Dymally and Assemblyman Willie Brown, among others, attended a large testimonial dinner in Jim Jones' honor in September of 1976. At that dinner, Willie Brown referred to Jone as "a combination of Martin King, Angela Davis, Albert Einstein, and Chairman Mao." Both Assemblyman Willie Brown and Governor Jerry Brown attended Temple services. After the Peoples Temple participation was instrumental in the Mayoral election victory of George Moscone in 1975, Moscone appointed Jones as the Chairman of the San Francisco Housing Commission."

Later, of course, Jones would go on to be directly responsible for the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children.

_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#169288 - 05/03/08 09:27 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: John317]
Amelia Administrator Offline
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Oh I remember Jim Jones very well. I just didn't know his religious status prior to his cult creation. Same for those alien believer people and the comet people. I think some of these kooks create a cult long after being exposed to a religion, maybe as a child. Some I believe are just wacky from the start.
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" Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him..."1 John 2:15-16

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#169297 - 05/04/08 12:24 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Amelia]
Amelia Administrator Offline
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The Liberty Blog

A Texas Sized Mess!

By Alan J. Reinach
May 1, 2008

Texas is a big state with an even bigger ego, and now it has a legal mess to match. Everyone is familiar with the incursion of government officials into the Yearning For Zion compound of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints. We all know that 413 children [and counting] were removed ostensibly for their own protection, and that the legal games have begun. Many questions are being asked about religious freedom, and whether the rights of the church members were violated.

http://www.religiousliberty.info/blog/?p=73
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#169299 - 05/04/08 04:10 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Neil D]
cardw Offline


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1430
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Quote:
Obviously, you are thinking that 1844 not only was a disappointment, but also a false interpretation...Because, if the prophecys regarding 1844 are incorrect, then there is no need for a prophetess/guide... Correct me if I am misinterpreting you here....

Assuming that is the case, how do you interprete Daniel? Literally, figuratively, prophectically? How?


To me its quite obvious that Ellen and James White were making a lot of it up as they went. I don't believe it was a pre-meditated or even conscious process, but one that grew out of the need to make something meaningful out of their extreme commitment to the idea of a second coming.

What makes the most sense to me is that the Old Testament was put together in the 6th century BC from various documents that had been collected and rewritten to blend Egyptian Babylonian and Semitic religious belief systems.

I think Daniel Dennet's work on memes has some insights into religious beliefs and processes. You can see this on the following video

Daniel Dennett & Bill Moyers
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#169300 - 05/04/08 04:58 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
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If one believes that the OT was put together by mere humans alone, how does one explain the prophecies? How about Obadiah, for instance, written about the Edomites? Or Deut.28? Or Ezekiel 26?-- to mention just a few.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#169357 - 05/04/08 11:19 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: John317]
LynnDel Offline
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Back to the original topic -- I find it interesting that the group in Texas is styled a "sect" while the group in New Mexico is called a "cult." I guess we can be thankful for that.



Edited by LynnDel (05/04/08 11:20 PM)
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#169361 - 05/04/08 11:50 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 1712
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: cardw
Quote:
Obviously, you are thinking that 1844 not only was a disappointment, but also a false interpretation...Because, if the prophecys regarding 1844 are incorrect, then there is no need for a prophetess/guide... Correct me if I am misinterpreting you here....

Assuming that is the case, how do you interprete Daniel? Literally, figuratively, prophectically? How?


To me its quite obvious that Ellen and James White were making a lot of it up as they went. I don't believe it was a pre-meditated or even conscious process, but one that grew out of the need to make something meaningful out of their extreme commitment to the idea of a second coming.

What makes the most sense to me is that the Old Testament was put together in the 6th century BC from various documents that had been collected and rewritten to blend Egyptian Babylonian and Semitic religious belief systems.

I think Daniel Dennet's work on memes has some insights into religious beliefs and processes. You can see this on the following video

Daniel Dennett & Bill Moyers

'


In other words not only are the writings of EGW made up (even if not intentional) and her messages are not for us (i.e. they are simply suggestions made by a human without God's inpiring her, or giving her visions.) And since the Bible was put together and written by humans it is also open to interpretation of what is valid or not valid? I.E. from a written perspective there is no written absolutes, no black and white, no "thus saith the Lord"? So the anchor of life, then, the absolute truth, is simply what is "truth" for each person...based on our experiences, what works for us and how we feel about things or how we logically see things, or what scientists tell us? If that is the case, then isn't our knowledge based strictly on human reasoning?

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#169374 - 05/05/08 05:20 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Taylor]
cardw Offline


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1430
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Quote:
from a written perspective there is no written absolutes, no black and white, no "thus saith the Lord"?


It was the idea of "thus saith the Lord" that got both Wayne Bent and the members of this cult in trouble. Once you give your reasoning away to a book or a person, you become vulnerable to ignoring the cause and effect right in front of you.

Quote:
then isn't our knowledge based strictly on human reasoning?


Well unless you have another way of thinking and understanding while NOT using your brain, this is really all we have.

Written language is a human technology and essentially has been unavailable to the majority of people on the planet for most of its history, so I think the reliance on writing is really a worship of writing itself.

Quote:
So the anchor of life, then, the absolute truth, is simply what is "truth" for each person...based on our experiences, what works for us and how we feel about things or how we logically see things, or what scientists tell us?


The anchor of life, if there is such a thing, is simply what we each make up in our minds. We live in a deeply mysterious world and anyone who claims they know the mind of God or can interpret the mind of God based on a holy book to the extent that they believe everyone should see God in that way is exaggerating their own abilities.

With 33,000 different versions of Christianity there is simply no evidence that any one view of even Christianity is the "right" one, let alone God's view.

As I understand Wayne Bent, he took Ellen White's writings very seriously and when she states that we need to perfect our characters before the close of probation, he took that very literally.

Believing that it was possible he gathered a group of people with him that came to believe the same way, but determining if you have a perfect character without being arrogant is an impossible task.

One solution to this would be for him to actually become god and he certainly had a following that were quite willing to go along with this because it met both of their needs. If Wayne was Jesus then that confirmed that he had perfected his character and if the followers were part of the inside circle then they too must be on the fast track for perfect characters.

As I listened to their story it became quite evident that much of Wayne Bent as the messiah was created by his own followers as much as it was created by him.

While I did not go off to the desert to be with a cult, I did take Ellen White very seriously and I took the Bible very seriously. I read both of them very literally and within the culture of Adventism that I grew up with, the end of the world was a very real thing. This created a series of "memes" that made life a fearful daily ordeal for me. I recognize this state in almost any Christian church I have attended within some or most of the members.

This is a very harmful and toxic belief system that passes for "good" within any number of religious organizations. And it is particularly prevalent within organizations that claim to know the truth and seek to convince or impose their view on the world. And with Adventism it was and is seen as a life or death issue. This brings a whole other level of intensity that, for some people, is life threatening in the form of morbid depression or a life of fear and shame.
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#169378 - 05/05/08 05:50 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: LynnDel]
Neil D Offline
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Registered: 08/10/00
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Originally Posted By: LynnDel
Quote:
My question for this is why does the SDA church produce such ultra conservative dysfunctional people?


I don't think it's so much that the church produces such people, but it attracts such people. Take a look at any group of people who tend to lean toward either end of a liberal-conservative spectrum, and you will find kooks.


Attracts? Sorry, Lynndell if I tent to disagree with you...I think that there is more PRODUCTION than attraction...But you are correct in that there are those who are attracted and then go off the deep end...I went to wildwood, and found many a home grown adventist and few converted adventist. And yes, I am NOT home grown, but I have always been aware of Adventism because I had grandparents who were SDA, and my dad grew up SDA.

I kinda know the problem...We rely much on the word and suspend our thinking minds...that we take it an honor to have faith in something that we can not see. We rely on trust/faith so much that it is the path to travel and rely on EGW writings that we forget that there is some rational thinking that WE must do....

There is also an experience with the Word that is needful, and humbling and wonderful. And it is an experience that needs to be shared with fellow believers, and confirmed by the Word of God. Not exactly what Wayne Bents followers were doing.....

Oh well, I go off on the deep end.


Edited by Neil D (05/05/08 05:55 AM)
Edit Reason: I want to make myself abit clearer...
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#169402 - 05/05/08 03:00 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 1712
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Wow, well Richard, I will respect you, I will never make fun of you. You would be welcome in my home any time.

I do feel that God is my anchor in life and that I can trust the Bible as being put together by men who were led y God. It is the Word of God for us. No we can't claim to ever understand the greatness of God or his thoughts but we can trust what we do know through His word, his leadings, and the very real changes he brings to people's lives. That isn't toxic faith, that is Christianity and I am so thankful we have a God who doesn't ask us to "check our brains at the door" like cults do, but He IS and has proven himself to be completely and totally trust worthy. He isn't some strange, weird, cult, he is a vibrant, living, all-powerful God who will come back and take us home to be with him for all eternity . There IS an anchor in the seas of this life and it is God. Yes we are expected to use our brains, no we are not to follow humans, and Wayne Bent believes much that goes against God's word through the Bible, and even against what is considered normal behavior even by decent christian and non-christian folks. He is strange because of his own sick perversions, not because God is like that or the Bible. He may have started out as an SDA but heaven forbid that he resembles any SDA's I know, and if he did, I would pity them.

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#169476 - 05/06/08 07:09 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Taylor]
cardw Offline


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1430
Loc: CA
Quote:
Wow, well Richard, I will respect you, I will never make fun of you. You would be welcome in my home any time.


That is very kind of you.

Quote:
I do feel that God is my anchor in life and that I can trust the Bible as being put together by men who were led y God. It is the Word of God for us. No we can't claim to ever understand the greatness of God or his thoughts but we can trust what we do know through His word, his leadings, and the very real changes he brings to people's lives.


In my experience there are certainly changes, but I see no evidence that these changes are the exclusive domain of people who believe in God or that the source of these changes is exclusively the Bible or prayer or any other religious connection.

I see the harmful ideas within Christianity as being those ideas that state that Christianity is the only source of truth and salvation and that those outside of its tenets are condemned. This exists in other traditions as well and I see no evidence that there is any exclusive way.

Quote:
Yes we are expected to use our brains, no we are not to follow humans, and Wayne Bent believes much that goes against God's word through the Bible, and even against what is considered normal behavior even by decent christian and non-christian folks.


Even your own reasoning appeals to other methods outside of Christianity. A natural rational awareness of what is harmful.

Quote:
He is strange because of his own sick perversions, not because God is like that or the Bible. He may have started out as an SDA but heaven forbid that he resembles any SDA's I know, and if he did, I would pity them.


Wayne lost both his parents at an early age and reports that he was kidnapped and raped by another man. So he has some history that probably contributes to a shifted awareness of himself that is beyond his ability to see through.

This history, combined with a rather condemnation laden belief system that was Seventh Day Adventism in a previous generation, would certainly set him up. You may not believe this way, but those of us who grew up at the tail end of that system of Seventh Day Adventism, know rather acutely the suffering caused by extensive reading of Ellen White and trying to carry out all those instructions.

I am fairly certain that if I had not left Seventh Day Adventism, I would either be working in some "true" version of SDA belief or dead. You seem to have the ability to set aside some of the more toxic teachings and resign them to either an exaggeration or a misinterpretation.

The problem comes when one takes the writings of Ellen White exactly as she claims. She claims that all her writings are God inspired and that they have authority to explain what God wants us to do. And the implication is that if we don't follow these writings then God will not bless us and eventually we may even be rejected by God.

I grew up in a culture and family that treated these instructions very seriously and solemnly. There was not a lot of room to think for myself. There was a lot of emphasis on following exactly what God instructed in the form of the Spirit of Prophecy with a lot of mythology about what happens when you don't follow these instructions.

Fortunately for me, I have since discovered that most of this stuff is simply not true and is based on a lot of need for control and has very little to do with either spirituality or maturity.

So, you may find solace in the idea that God provides an anchor. I simply do not. The idea of a God that requires all the mental gymnastics that people go through to make sense of it, is highly unappealing to me. I find that I experience far greater peace, joy, and happiness apart from trying to figure out what God wants.
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#169482 - 05/06/08 03:21 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 1712
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Well Richard, for what it's worth, whether you believe in God or not, whether you think there is a heaven or not, I hope to one day meet you in heaven in addition perhaps to one day meeting you here on earth. I think that there is truth, that God is real and I also have no doubt that He loves you unconditionally. I am also certain He would love to spend eternity with you in heaven. I wish you the best.

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#169836 - 05/10/08 04:27 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Taylor]
LynnDel Offline
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I don't know if anyone is following this story. Larry King had an interview with several Travesser followers earlier this week , including Wayne Bent's son, and I understand there is going to be some kind of follow-up on TV tonight, though I couldn't tell you what channel.

I find several aspects quite interesting about this cult. One is that there are no small children at the location. I wonder if those who had children realized it was not a healthy environment for their little ones and moved off. Another is that a number of them keep blogs (see http://travesser-thelasttrump.blogspot.com/ and links within that blog). They are quite open about sharing what they believe. According to several blog entries, Wayne Bent aka Michael of Travesser aka The Sinful Messiah was arrested and jailed several days ago, and released yesterday.

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#169839 - 05/10/08 04:48 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: LynnDel]
Tom Wetmore Offline
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The group's primary website/blog is at Strong City . The National Geographic Channel aired the documentary earlier this week.

Tom
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#169841 - 05/10/08 05:16 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Tom Wetmore]
LynnDel Offline
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Quote:
The National Geographic Channel aired the documentary earlier this week.


True, Tom. The airing earlier this week was a second showing (first aired in the U.S. April 23 or 24, prompting further investigation by authorities and the removal of the three teens). The program that is to be aired tonight at 7 pm was announced by Larry King, and from what he said I don't think it will be a third airing of that documentary.
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#169842 - 05/10/08 05:21 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: LynnDel]
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Are the Seven wives also of adventist background?

None of the wives look like they would be of a similar age to him

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#169866 - 05/10/08 11:02 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: Stan Jensen]
LynnDel Offline
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Anyone interested in reading Larry King's transcripts from Thursday night may go to: Larry King

Update on the National Geographic program (info gleaned from the transcript above). I originally thought tonight's showing was not the NG program "Inside a Cult," but I was wrong. It is to re-air at 10 pm ET (7 pm via DirecTV in California).
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#169869 - 05/10/08 11:22 PM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: LynnDel]
cardw Offline


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You can view the whole National Geographic program on my latest blog post. The comments include some interaction with one of the cult members named Grace.

Just click on the link below and scroll down...


Cult Think: The abuse of Spirituality?
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#169875 - 05/11/08 12:58 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: cardw]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 707
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: cardw
You can view the whole National Geographic program on my latest blog post. The comments include some interaction with one of the cult members named Grace.

Just click on the link below and scroll down...

Cult Think: The abuse of Spirituality?



I had to agree with your assessment of Jeff. It made me want to cry for him the first time I saw it. I appreciated your insightful comments. Many people, like you, have been raised in Adventism exactly as you described, particularly in the 1960s and 70s. I know only a few from that era who are still in the church today. Some have returned after being away for many years and finding the church to be mostly past those dysfunctional ideas. Others have been able to remain Christians only by joining other denominations.

I want to march in and rescue these people, but what can realistically be done for "addicts," as you described them, who aren't able to respond to reason?

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#169937 - 05/11/08 08:22 AM Re: Police take kids from apocalyptic church [Re: carolaa]
cardw Offline


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1430
Loc: CA
Quote:
I want to march in and rescue these people, but what can realistically be done for "addicts," as you described them, who aren't able to respond to reason?


I feel the same way. This is a very good question. Nothing is going to match the high that comes from believing that you have been with the God of the universe. And for those girls who had their first sexual experiences with Wayne, the recovery is going to be a lifetime, unless we discover ways to bridge that gap more quickly. And if one does awaken to the false claims, the feelings of betrayal are extreme. If you have no system of grace, the self recrimination can be overwhelming. In the case of this cult, the evidence is apparent, when the children who were taken from Strong City, went on hunger strikes to get back. Wayne Bent himself went on a hunger strike while he was in prison.

Few people understand the enormity of the harm because many parts of the personality are operating normally and if a person is bright enough they can split the painful parts off and keep them suppressed. Too many underestimate the power of shame and fear combined with beliefs that are unassailable by reason.

This recovery requires far more than a simple mental understanding. The programming involves the whole body and a person's emotional belief system. This requires a community of loving people who understand the path out of this and its pitfalls. This process is beyond any one person.
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