This is why I can't fully accept EGW as a prophet. Now she does say that she is not infallible....Why then do you John place her in such a position of great authority? Clearly either she understood what she was writing or she was ignorant. I assume the latter.

John (or anyone), why does Ellen G. White present Old Covenant terminology in her writings (see the above red lettering) when clearly she links these phrases (obey & live, disobey & die) with the Old Covenant?

"The terms of the 'old covenant' were, Obey and live: 'If a man do, he shall even live in them' (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5);but 'cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.' Deuteronomy 27:26."

Rob

First of all, thanks very much for providing "the whole thing." I really do appreciate that. I plan on getting the Ellen White CD and also the PDA eBook Collection of her writings. Have you seen that? What a wonderful source that will be!

She uses those words in the context of the New Covenant, not the Old. The words are true under the New Covenant but they have a new, different meaning. The ancient Jews took them to teach "works of the law" but in reality they teach "works of faith" because it is only by faith in Christ that anyone can truly keep the law of God, anyway. And it doesn't mean that you and I must keep the law absolutely flawlessly, either. Remember that it's all said in light of 1 John 1: 5-10 and John 3:16 and Romans 3: 21-26. Taken together, none of these contradict Ellen White's quote, nor do any of them contradict 1 John 3: 1-10.

When reading the quote you gave us, we must also take into account the following very important quote that comes quickly on the heels of the first quote and which helps to make clear that Ellen White is not thinking in legalistic terms:



1 John 3: 1-10 teaches the same thing that Ellen White teaches in the above quote. And the apostle John wrote 1 John 1 before he wrote 1 John 3.

Both the Apostle John and Ellen White are saying that the only way we can "obey and live" is through union with Jesus Christ, and that if one is not in a faith-based union or fellowship with Jesus, one will "disobey and die."

God never intended anyone to think that we humans on our own can "obey and live." That is an utter impossibility.

There are people who don't accept the Bible as fully inspired because they misunderstand it or because they only have part of the evidence. Maybe Ellen White is not saying what you think she is. I don't think she is contradicting everything else she has said on the subject. She evidently wrote this fairly late in life. Put the whole in the context of the line: "Sin can not reign in the life of the one who loves God supremely." Notice it doesn't say "people do not ever commit a sin" when they love God supremely.

That's just not true, John. Here it is again:

-PC- RH
-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald
-DT- 10-17-07
-AT- The Two Covenants
-PR- 08

The terms of the "old covenant" were, [1] Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but [2] "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises,"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart [mind], and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law.

Clearly it is the Old Covenant that demands "obey & live, disobey & die".

You see under the NC I stand righteous by faith. I have the forgiveness of sin. Under the OC there's no forgiveness, only condemnation. So the two are not the same.

Remember the man of Romans 7? He's failing to live the spirit of God's law (see verse 14) even though he has the law of God written in his heart (see verse 22), yet clearly there is no condemnation even though he is failing. Why? The New Covenant - the truth as it is "In Christ"!

You see the terms of God's law, "obey & live, disobey & die" were fulfilled "in Christ". Since the humanity that Christ assumed was yours also your humanity was made obedient "in Christ". Hence Christ fulfilled "obey & live"!

And because Christ took your old life to the eternal grave you "died" in Christ. Hence Christ took upon Himself the curse of the law (disobey & die)!

Paul contrasts the two in Romans 10:3-13

For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end [fulfillment] of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

5 [On the other hand] Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall by it live.

6 [Opposite this] the righteousness based on faith says, (9) if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. 13 For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

I'll carefully study your post Sunday and give it a thorough reply.

Meantime, take a look at the things that Ellen White said in this part of the quote you gave us:



Notice the highlighted parts of the quote. Do you believe anyone "keeps His commandments"? If not, then according to the verse, no one knows God.

If no one keeps His commandments, then according to the Bible, no one should be saying they know God. Thus you and I don't know God. Paul did not know God. Then according to this-- if you are right, that no one keeps God's commandments-- only Jesus knew or knows God. Everyone else is ignorant of God.

Again, in your view, God's love is not perfected in anyone, nor can it be, because no one keeps His word.

Again, no one is "an obedient child of God," according to your definition of obedience.

And finally, David could not possibly obey God's commandments, so he was self-deceived at the very least when he said, "I will obey the commandments of my God."

Have I misstated any of your views of these quotes?

No! Do not sidetrack from the issue!



Ellen White gave Old Covenant commands, period. Why?

Because they are still applicable. There is nothing wrong with the commands. Everything depends on whether we see the words in the light of legalism and apart from the grace of God, or whether we see them in the streams of light coming from the cross of Christ. If we obey God there is still blessing and life, but if we choose to go our own way and live in disobedience to God and contrary to his character, it still leads to death.

I would write a lot more but I am preparing for a trip to Hawaii tomorrow. I will go to a Internet cafe over there and continue our conversations at that time.

I think you probably believe Ellen White did not really mean what she said but that she was using the law in order to stop the mouths of legalists and show them that it is impossible to be saved by the law.

I would be interested in hearing your understanding. What evidence is there from other writings of Ellen White that your view of this is correct? What do you see in the whole article in which the quote occurs that supports your view?

Then there's no use continuing with this conversation because you have accepted what Paul terms "another gospel" (see Gal 1:6-9)



Ellen White is not Paul and she doesn't carry his authority. Paul directly links these OC phrases with what the law demands for one to enter heaven.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.”

Under law you must be spotless - you must live Christ's life in every detail. No self-seeking in your life - zip - none - zero! If you fail in the slightest point you must take the 2nd death upon yourself.

Under grace we are no longer under the demands of "obey & live, disobey & die"! The law can no longer touch you because as far as it is concerned you lived, died and were resurrected "in Christ" and in Him you stand perfect before God's law. That's grace. That's why Paul states, "The just by faith shall live" instead of "obey and live"! Two different systems.

Rob

The Judaizers (Jews who had accepted Christianity, but continued to make the keeping of the law a requirement for salvation) taught that, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” [Acts 15:5] What was Paul's answer to their demands?

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of bondage (compare Acts 15:10). 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (as a requirement), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.