Wow, well Richard, I will respect you, I will never make fun of you. You would be welcome in my home any time.

I do feel that God is my anchor in life and that I can trust the Bible as being put together by men who were led y God. It is the Word of God for us. No we can't claim to ever understand the greatness of God or his thoughts but we can trust what we do know through His word, his leadings, and the very real changes he brings to people's lives. That isn't toxic faith, that is Christianity and I am so thankful we have a God who doesn't ask us to "check our brains at the door" like cults do, but He IS and has proven himself to be completely and totally trust worthy. He isn't some strange, weird, cult, he is a vibrant, living, all-powerful God who will come back and take us home to be with him for all eternity . There IS an anchor in the seas of this life and it is God. Yes we are expected to use our brains, no we are not to follow humans, and Wayne Bent believes much that goes against God's word through the Bible, and even against what is considered normal behavior even by decent christian and non-christian folks. He is strange because of his own sick perversions, not because God is like that or the Bible. He may have started out as an SDA but heaven forbid that he resembles any SDA's I know, and if he did, I would pity them.

That is very kind of you.



In my experience there are certainly changes, but I see no evidence that these changes are the exclusive domain of people who believe in God or that the source of these changes is exclusively the Bible or prayer or any other religious connection.

I see the harmful ideas within Christianity as being those ideas that state that Christianity is the only source of truth and salvation and that those outside of its tenets are condemned. This exists in other traditions as well and I see no evidence that there is any exclusive way.



Even your own reasoning appeals to other methods outside of Christianity. A natural rational awareness of what is harmful.



Wayne lost both his parents at an early age and reports that he was kidnapped and raped by another man. So he has some history that probably contributes to a shifted awareness of himself that is beyond his ability to see through.

This history, combined with a rather condemnation laden belief system that was Seventh Day Adventism in a previous generation, would certainly set him up. You may not believe this way, but those of us who grew up at the tail end of that system of Seventh Day Adventism, know rather acutely the suffering caused by extensive reading of Ellen White and trying to carry out all those instructions.

I am fairly certain that if I had not left Seventh Day Adventism, I would either be working in some "true" version of SDA belief or dead. You seem to have the ability to set aside some of the more toxic teachings and resign them to either an exaggeration or a misinterpretation.

The problem comes when one takes the writings of Ellen White exactly as she claims. She claims that all her writings are God inspired and that they have authority to explain what God wants us to do. And the implication is that if we don't follow these writings then God will not bless us and eventually we may even be rejected by God.

I grew up in a culture and family that treated these instructions very seriously and solemnly. There was not a lot of room to think for myself. There was a lot of emphasis on following exactly what God instructed in the form of the Spirit of Prophecy with a lot of mythology about what happens when you don't follow these instructions.

Fortunately for me, I have since discovered that most of this stuff is simply not true and is based on a lot of need for control and has very little to do with either spirituality or maturity.

So, you may find solace in the idea that God provides an anchor. I simply do not. The idea of a God that requires all the mental gymnastics that people go through to make sense of it, is highly unappealing to me. I find that I experience far greater peace, joy, and happiness apart from trying to figure out what God wants.

Well Richard, for what it's worth, whether you believe in God or not, whether you think there is a heaven or not, I hope to one day meet you in heaven in addition perhaps to one day meeting you here on earth. I think that there is truth, that God is real and I also have no doubt that He loves you unconditionally. I am also certain He would love to spend eternity with you in heaven. I wish you the best.

I don't know if anyone is following this story. Larry King had an interview with several Travesser followers earlier this week , including Wayne Bent's son, and I understand there is going to be some kind of follow-up on TV tonight, though I couldn't tell you what channel.

I find several aspects quite interesting about this cult. One is that there are no small children at the location. I wonder if those who had children realized it was not a healthy environment for their little ones and moved off. Another is that a number of them keep blogs (see http://travesser-thelasttrump.blogspot.com/ and links within that blog). They are quite open about sharing what they believe. According to several blog entries, Wayne Bent aka Michael of Travesser aka The Sinful Messiah was arrested and jailed several days ago, and released yesterday.

The group's primary website/blog is at Strong City . The National Geographic Channel aired the documentary earlier this week.

Tom

True, Tom. The airing earlier this week was a second showing (first aired in the U.S. April 23 or 24, prompting further investigation by authorities and the removal of the three teens). The program that is to be aired tonight at 7 pm was announced by Larry King, and from what he said I don't think it will be a third airing of that documentary.

Are the Seven wives also of adventist background?

None of the wives look like they would be of a similar age to him

Anyone interested in reading Larry King's transcripts from Thursday night may go to: Larry King

Update on the National Geographic program (info gleaned from the transcript above). I originally thought tonight's showing was not the NG program "Inside a Cult," but I was wrong. It is to re-air at 10 pm ET (7 pm via DirecTV in California).

You can view the whole National Geographic program on my latest blog post. The comments include some interaction with one of the cult members named Grace.

Just click on the link below and scroll down...


Cult Think: The abuse of Spirituality?

I had to agree with your assessment of Jeff. It made me want to cry for him the first time I saw it. I appreciated your insightful comments. Many people, like you, have been raised in Adventism exactly as you described, particularly in the 1960s and 70s. I know only a few from that era who are still in the church today. Some have returned after being away for many years and finding the church to be mostly past those dysfunctional ideas. Others have been able to remain Christians only by joining other denominations.

I want to march in and rescue these people, but what can realistically be done for "addicts," as you described them, who aren't able to respond to reason?