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#170037 - 05/12/08 09:40 PM Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs?
Reddogs Offline


Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 104
Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, world renouned scholar and former professor in Religion Department of Andrews University, has been probing the foundations of Adventist beliefs, and it seems left some shaken. He has served at Andrews University for 26 years as Professor of Theology and Church History until his retirement on July 2000. He now travels extensively around the world lecturing at universities, theological seminaries, professional meetings, and religious gatherings.
Thats where I caught up with him one Sabbath where he was holding a Sabbath seminar, (Subject:How to keep the Sabbath and gain the greatest blessing out of it) speaking about the latest Sabbath /Sunday developments in religous circles.

I talked to the people that I knew that came to the seminar and to Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, and came away with the impression that he is on a honest scholarly pursuit of truth as he probes some of the foundation of belief on Adventism. He loves the church and believes in Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophecy, but feels that there is nothing wrong with looking into what is written. Others dont share this view, and feel that any probing or updating with more historical information is a attack or something more ominous to the testimonies that we are given. Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.......?

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#170259 - 05/15/08 04:18 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Reddogs]
Beryl Offline


Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 2175
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:
Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.......?


I believe that they should be able to be probed and tested in friendly hands. However, there are several things which need to be considered:

1. The time when they were written. What applied then may not specifically apply in detail today, however,the principle most probably still applies.

2. Often the particular "testimony" was given to meet a specific need. Here again, the principle still applies, but not the specific instruction. Take, for instance, an oft quoted "statement" about not having milk and sugar together. That is so often based on a specific testimony that Ellen White gave to a man whose wife was a lazy housewife and did not do anything to provide her husband with appropriate food. He wanted to do what was right, and he left off meat, but, because his wife did not cook anything to take the place of the meat, he relied on copious amounts of milk and sugar to give to him the strength to continue his work. He eventually died -- probably from diabetes.

So, in this case the principle to apply is to replace meat with a protein food that will be a more healthful alternative than meat.

3. God unfolded truth to Ellen White little by little. We find the same principle in the Bible. When we read the Bible stories we find the same thing happening. Take the book of Ezekiel, for instance. We find God giving Ezekiel instructions over a number of years, gradually becoming more and more insistant to the Israelites who were going deeper and deeper into idolatry. They eventually reached the place in their Baal worship where they were prepared to take their firstborn son -- the one that God had said belonged to Him -- and place him on the burning arms of Baal -- as a sacrifice. Can you even begin to understand the horror of watching that tiny helpless infant die a shocking death all in the name of worship!Eventally God said, "enough is enough" and allowed the Babylonians to take them captive and destroy Jerusalem.

In the Spirit of Prophecy we often find statements in the early writings that contain truth -- but not the whole truth. Later we will find God giving further instructions that shed FURTHER light on the first statement. These are not contradictions, but further light along the way.

God bless,

Beryl
_________________________
"Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves."

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#170329 - 05/16/08 04:35 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Beryl]
Bravus Global Moderator Online   content
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6694
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Probably worth pointing out that Dr Sam is very conservative indeed, and any changes he might suggest to Adventist doctrines are likely to be in that direction rather than any kind of liberalisation.
_________________________
It's like no-one ever read their Gibbon

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#170331 - 05/16/08 04:39 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Bravus]
olger Online   content


Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 2973
Loc: Ohio
I don't see the problem ?

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#170379 - 05/16/08 07:46 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: olger]
Bert Offline
Am new here....

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1
Our doctrinal beliefs need to be able to withstand the light of scrutiny, for if they cannot, then it engenders doubt and questions the validity, veracity and truthfulness of our doctrines. The Reformation was based on 'searching the scriptures', and in doing so, more 'light' became the source of our doctrinal beliefs that guides our church today. We should emulate the Bereans and ascertain if what we are told is in accordance with what the Bible says.

God bless!
Bert


Edited by Bert (05/16/08 07:52 PM)
Edit Reason: Inadvertently submitted prior to completion

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#170383 - 05/16/08 08:00 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Reddogs]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 9189
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Reddogs
Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, world renouned scholar and former professor in Religion Department of Andrews University, has been probing the foundations of Adventist beliefs, and it seems left some shaken. He has served at Andrews University for 26 years as Professor of Theology and Church History until his retirement on July 2000. He now travels extensively around the world lecturing at universities, theological seminaries, professional meetings, and religious gatherings. .... Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.......?


In a word, yes. Every generation of Seventh-day Adventists must individually study the doctrines for themselves personally and know the Bible basis of their beliefs and convictions. It doesn't do any good for any of us to believe something simply because someone else believes it.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#170398 - 05/16/08 11:56 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: olger]
Redwood Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 7882
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: olger
I don't see the problem ?


Sorry to hear about your vision problems. I can relate. I have to wear glasses also. And they come in very handy when it comes to religious issues.
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Our Mama Beats Your Obama.
And don't forget ... Love WON Another.


Redwood

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#170434 - 05/17/08 04:39 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Redwood]
olger Online   content


Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 2973
Loc: Ohio
How was your time out?

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#170437 - 05/17/08 04:45 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: olger]
Redwood Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 7882
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Had a wonderful time. Thanks. I was finally able to get out after a winter of hibernation. Went to a cabin in the woods and did some hiking. Went to a certain religious meeting some distance from home. Did some shopping for a house and will soon be moving in. A busy time.

backtopic
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Our Mama Beats Your Obama.
And don't forget ... Love WON Another.


Redwood

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#170523 - 05/18/08 02:24 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Redwood]
olger Online   content


Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 2973
Loc: Ohio
Did you chop wood? That's awesome !

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#170529 - 05/18/08 03:02 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Online   content


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 582
Loc: B,C.
"Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.....?"



"in a word, yes"

Mmmm is that quite clear? (smile)

mel

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#170616 - 05/18/08 11:51 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: olger]
Bravus Global Moderator Online   content
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6694
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Quote:
I don't see the problem?

Not a problem at all, just an observation. I think sometimes an automatic assumption when people talk about challenging our questions and beliefs is that the intention is to 'loosen' them and make them more liberal. Maybe sometimes it is. I was just noting that that won't be Dr Sam's goal. Not placing any value judgement on that statement at all.
_________________________
It's like no-one ever read their Gibbon

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#170725 - 05/20/08 07:34 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Beryl]
Reddogs Offline


Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 104
Originally Posted By: Beryl
Quote:
Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.......?


I believe that they should be able to be probed and tested in friendly hands. However, there are several things which need to be considered:

1. The time when they were written. What applied then may not specifically apply in detail today, however,the principle most probably still applies.

Correct...

2. Often the particular "testimony" was given to meet a specific need. Here again, the principle still applies, but not the specific instruction. Take, for instance, an oft quoted "statement" about not having milk and sugar together. That is so often based on a specific testimony that Ellen White gave to a man whose wife was a lazy housewife and did not do anything to provide her husband with appropriate food. He wanted to do what was right, and he left off meat, but, because his wife did not cook anything to take the place of the meat, he relied on copious amounts of milk and sugar to give to him the strength to continue his work. He eventually died -- probably from diabetes.


Everything in proper context..

So, in this case the principle to apply is to replace meat with a protein food that will be a more healthful alternative than meat.

3. God unfolded truth to Ellen White little by little. We find the same principle in the Bible. When we read the Bible stories we find the same thing happening. Take the book of Ezekiel, for instance. We find God giving Ezekiel instructions over a number of years, gradually becoming more and more insistant to the Israelites who were going deeper and deeper into idolatry. They eventually reached the place in their Baal worship where they were prepared to take their firstborn son -- the one that God had said belonged to Him -- and place him on the burning arms of Baal -- as a sacrifice. Can you even begin to understand the horror of watching that tiny helpless infant die a shocking death all in the name of worship!Eventally God said, "enough is enough" and allowed the Babylonians to take them captive and destroy Jerusalem.


We also sometimes need truth fed to us slowly so we understand...

In the Spirit of Prophecy we often find statements in the early writings that contain truth -- but not the whole truth. Later we will find God giving further instructions that shed FURTHER light on the first statement. These are not contradictions, but further light along the way.


The understanding on the GodHead comes to mind....

God bless,

Beryl


Wow, excellent answers, where have you Adventist been hiding, this is the first real honest (and positive response) answers on Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi I've gotten on any forum........what do they pass out at lunchtime here, it seems to open up a lot of eyes and understanding.........

I will read the rest and post after work...


Edited by Reddogs (05/20/08 07:37 PM)

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#170741 - 05/21/08 01:21 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Redwood]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 1837
Loc: CA
So glad you are feeling better, Redwood! I don't think you had the priviledge of being able to go on a hike in so long.

Won't heaven be wonderful where you can run, hike any time you wish, swim with the dolfins, "sky dive" or even just sit quietly completely at ease and pain free and listen to Jesus speak? Wow I can't wait for that day for all of us!

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