Club Adventist
Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message
Page 6 of 10 < 1 2 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#170567 - 05/18/08 03:36 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: Robert]
Robert Online   usa


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
Originally Posted By: Robert
Again, for those defending the traditional view of Job, why did Job repent if everything was just fine?


?
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"

Top
#170580 - 05/18/08 04:21 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: Robert]
Gerry Cabalo Online   content


Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7418
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Robert
Originally Posted By: Norman
Exactly right Gerry, well said.

Norman


Why then did Job go from justifying himself before 4 men and God himself and then towards the end of the book of Job call himself "vile"?


The closer we come to the light, the more visible our imperfections. Blameless is not = perfect in the ultimate sense.
Quote:


Why did Job repent if he had no sin?


It was not sin that he repented of. He repented for speaking rashly.

"Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myuself,
and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:3,5,6.

What were some of the things he was quick to judge without all having all the information as to why he was suffering?

1. The WHYS. Curses the day of his birth, and asks why he did not die at birth; thereby questioning the purposes of God regarding his life. Is that sin?

2. "For the arrows of the Almighty are in me;
my spirit drinks their poison;
the terrors of God are arrayed against me." Job 6:4
He thought he was being afflicted BY God for no reason!

3. "Oh that I might have my request,
and that God would fulfill my hope,
that it would please God to crush me,
that he would let loose his hand and cut me off!
This would be my comfort;
I would even exult in pain unsparing,
For I have not denied the words of the Holy One." Job 6:8-10 ESV.

He was praying for God to kill him!
Quote:


Why did he cover his mouth and cease stating "I am blameless"?

Rob


He committed no sin/s that deserved the calamities and afflictions he suffered.


Gerry



Top
#170581 - 05/18/08 04:29 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: Robert]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10251
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Robert
Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
If what God said TWICE about Job was not true, that would make God a liar. That's impossible.


Gerry, God's not lying. He is merely presenting to Satan Job's own view of himself.


Do we have an unreliable narrator? Does the narrator, in the very first verse of the book, also present Job's mistaken view of himself?

Was Job "blameless and upright" or wasn't he? The narrator says he was. So does God Himself-- twice. Notice that the narrator does not say, "Job THOUGHT HE WAS blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil."

The only way the book makes sense is if Job was indeed "blameless and upright." After all, the main theme of the entire book is the suffering of the righteous. If, on the other hand, we say that Job was not righteous except in his own [self-righteous] eyes, we defeat the purpose of the book. That would only be possible if we say that the narrator himself is unreliable and gives us false information. That is, it would necessitate the same kind of narrator as occurs, for example, in The Ox-Bow Incident and in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

However, there is no evidence that this is the case. Therefore I believe that the narrator is truthful and straightforward, not unreliable, and that Job is exactly what the narrator says he was, "blameless and upright."
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


Top
#170583 - 05/18/08 05:06 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: Robert]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10251
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Robert
Originally Posted By: Robert
Again, for those defending the traditional view of Job, why did Job repent if everything was just fine?


?


No one, least of all the narrator, is claiming that Job is absolutely perfect or sinless or that Job could not gain insights from his suffering. There is also nothing in the book to suggest that Job admits the accusation of his "friends" was true, that he was suffering because of some sin that he'd committed. At last God supports Job's truthfulness in what he has said about God. Contrary to what Job's "friends" have been claiming, God has not been punishing Job on account of his sins.

When God questions Job, it is not to show that Job is a great sinner and a self-righteous hypocrite. Instead, God asks him where he was when God created the world. In other words, God challenges Job's wisdom and knowledge, not his righteousness or moral character. In his horrific suffering, Job has spoken rashly and hastily about God, and it is Job's realization of his hasty speech that causes him to repent in dust and ashes. This is shown in Job's reply to God in Job 42: 1-6: "THEREFORE I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


Top
#170585 - 05/18/08 05:23 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10251
Loc: CA


Excellent post, Gerry.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


Top
#170596 - 05/18/08 06:59 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: Robert]
melvin mccarty Online   content


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 617
Loc: B,C.
As I mentioned before, Rob, many strong men have made false confessions under torture

men

Top
#170603 - 05/18/08 07:55 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
Robert Online   usa


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
It was not sin that he repented of. He repented for speaking rashly.


Let's see if your answer adds up....

Job repented for speaking "rashly", but not for sinning, right? If speaking "rashly" isn't sin then why repent? By the way, when was the last time you spoke "rashly" and then called yourself "vile" for doing so?

So no, your answer is bogus. It doesn't add up.

Come on Gerry...you can do better than that!
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"

Top
#170604 - 05/18/08 08:00 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: melvin mccarty]
Robert Online   usa


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
As I mentioned before, Rob, many strong men have made false confessions under torture

men


Funny...when it came to the four men (of which 3 tried to convince him he cherished some secret sin and the 4th tried to convince him he was self-righteous) he made no such confession even though he was suffering.

Sorry, you like Gerry are justifying self-righteousness. I must reject your mistaken theology.

Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"

Top
#170605 - 05/18/08 08:01 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: John317]
Robert Online   usa


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
Originally Posted By: John317


Excellent post, Gerry.


You wish!
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"

Top
#170606 - 05/18/08 08:05 PM Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? [Re: John317]
Robert Online   usa


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
Originally Posted By: John317
Was Job "blameless and upright" or wasn't he? The narrator says he was. So does God Himself-- twice. Notice that the narrator does not say, "Job THOUGHT HE WAS blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil."


Does the Bible always immediately explain everything? No! It requires and open mind...thinking outside the box and not jumping on a few words and making it the end all, be all, of all truth.

Again, the forest is obstructing your view of the trees. You need help....

Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"

Top
Page 6 of 10 < 1 2 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >


Moderator:  John317, John317, John317, John317 
Our Store


SEARCH OUR SITE

Custom Search
30 days FREE

This full membership income helps pay for hosting, advertising, domain names, software support etc etc
Shout Box

The Chat Room

Come Chat with others,
open 24/7

Who's Online
83 registered (aldona, Bearamie, Beryl, bkopplin, Bravus, Bruce_G, Bruno, bygjymbo, c freeland, carolaa, carole1012, CoAspen, Contented, Curly, DanC, darlene, delta, Denise, dgrimm60, Dottie, Doug, fccool, Gerry Cabalo, Gladussee, guibox, james423, Jerry D Thomas, John317, Kevin H, Kountzer, Lauralea, lazarus, LifeHiscost, Lineman, Liz, LLBeck, Loren Fenton, LynnDel, Mark Aurelius, melvin mccarty, mikeyswen79, Morning Glory, Nan, Neil D, Nightingale, Norman, olger, patty, pkrause, puddles, Raphael, Redwood, Robert, Sapphire, SarahAnne, SherryLee, SMAN, Tallmark, Taylor, Vera, vern, 22 invisible), 519 Guests and 247 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Featured Member
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 492
Top Posters (30 Days)
Redwood 767
John317 711
Shane 435
Neil D 360
Robert 290
Bravus 286
carolaa 280
fccool 217
BobRyan 183
rush4hire 181
Stan Jensen 172
Taylor 136
Amelia 128
olger 120
Gail 104
pkrause 100
Nan 96
Lineman 81
Liz 77
B Humble 73
Top Posters
Amelia 18428
Shane 16945
Robert 15381
Gail 13579
Neil D 13177
John317 10249
Redwood 8970
Gerry Cabalo 7418
Naomi 7196
Gregory Matthews 7111
Bravus 7061
Nan 6021
Shirley 5292
ChildofChrist 5048
cricket 4889
bevin 4699
LifeHiscost 4152
Stan Jensen 3917
D. Allan 3883
dgrimm60 3593
Newest Members
SarahAnne, kayyak, veggiesmile, parsongarlic, babydeed
2962 Registered Users

THE ADVENTIST FORUM® is a self-supporting ministry and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland or any of its subsidiaries.
Copyright © ClubAdventist.com® 1999 - 2008