#170567 - 05/18/08 03:36 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Again, for those defending the traditional view of Job, why did Job repent if everything was just fine? ?
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"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#170580 - 05/18/08 04:21 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7418
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
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Exactly right Gerry, well said.
Norman Why then did Job go from justifying himself before 4 men and God himself and then towards the end of the book of Job call himself "vile"?
The closer we come to the light, the more visible our imperfections. Blameless is not = perfect in the ultimate sense.
Why did Job repent if he had no sin?
It was not sin that he repented of. He repented for speaking rashly.
"Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myuself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:3,5,6.
What were some of the things he was quick to judge without all having all the information as to why he was suffering?
1. The WHYS. Curses the day of his birth, and asks why he did not die at birth; thereby questioning the purposes of God regarding his life. Is that sin?
2. "For the arrows of the Almighty are in me; my spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me." Job 6:4 He thought he was being afflicted BY God for no reason!
3. "Oh that I might have my request, and that God would fulfill my hope, that it would please God to crush me, that he would let loose his hand and cut me off! This would be my comfort; I would even exult in pain unsparing, For I have not denied the words of the Holy One." Job 6:8-10 ESV.
He was praying for God to kill him!
Why did he cover his mouth and cease stating "I am blameless"?
Rob
He committed no sin/s that deserved the calamities and afflictions he suffered.Gerry
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#170581 - 05/18/08 04:29 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10251
Loc: CA
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If what God said TWICE about Job was not true, that would make God a liar. That's impossible. Gerry, God's not lying. He is merely presenting to Satan Job's own view of himself. Do we have an unreliable narrator? Does the narrator, in the very first verse of the book, also present Job's mistaken view of himself? Was Job "blameless and upright" or wasn't he? The narrator says he was. So does God Himself-- twice. Notice that the narrator does not say, "Job THOUGHT HE WAS blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil." The only way the book makes sense is if Job was indeed "blameless and upright." After all, the main theme of the entire book is the suffering of the righteous. If, on the other hand, we say that Job was not righteous except in his own [self-righteous] eyes, we defeat the purpose of the book. That would only be possible if we say that the narrator himself is unreliable and gives us false information. That is, it would necessitate the same kind of narrator as occurs, for example, in The Ox-Bow Incident and in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. However, there is no evidence that this is the case. Therefore I believe that the narrator is truthful and straightforward, not unreliable, and that Job is exactly what the narrator says he was, "blameless and upright."
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#170583 - 05/18/08 05:06 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10251
Loc: CA
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Again, for those defending the traditional view of Job, why did Job repent if everything was just fine? ? No one, least of all the narrator, is claiming that Job is absolutely perfect or sinless or that Job could not gain insights from his suffering. There is also nothing in the book to suggest that Job admits the accusation of his "friends" was true, that he was suffering because of some sin that he'd committed. At last God supports Job's truthfulness in what he has said about God. Contrary to what Job's "friends" have been claiming, God has not been punishing Job on account of his sins. When God questions Job, it is not to show that Job is a great sinner and a self-righteous hypocrite. Instead, God asks him where he was when God created the world. In other words, God challenges Job's wisdom and knowledge, not his righteousness or moral character. In his horrific suffering, Job has spoken rashly and hastily about God, and it is Job's realization of his hasty speech that causes him to repent in dust and ashes. This is shown in Job's reply to God in Job 42: 1-6: "THEREFORE I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#170585 - 05/18/08 05:23 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: Gerry Cabalo]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10251
Loc: CA
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Excellent post, Gerry.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#170596 - 05/18/08 06:59 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 617
Loc: B,C.
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As I mentioned before, Rob, many strong men have made false confessions under torture
men
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#170603 - 05/18/08 07:55 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: Gerry Cabalo]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
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It was not sin that he repented of. He repented for speaking rashly. Let's see if your answer adds up.... Job repented for speaking "rashly", but not for sinning, right? If speaking "rashly" isn't sin then why repent? By the way, when was the last time you spoke "rashly" and then called yourself "vile" for doing so? So no, your answer is bogus. It doesn't add up. Come on Gerry...you can do better than that!
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#170604 - 05/18/08 08:00 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: melvin mccarty]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
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As I mentioned before, Rob, many strong men have made false confessions under torture
men Funny...when it came to the four men (of which 3 tried to convince him he cherished some secret sin and the 4th tried to convince him he was self-righteous) he made no such confession even though he was suffering. Sorry, you like Gerry are justifying self-righteousness. I must reject your mistaken theology. Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#170605 - 05/18/08 08:01 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
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_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#170606 - 05/18/08 08:05 PM
Re: What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15381
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Was Job "blameless and upright" or wasn't he? The narrator says he was. So does God Himself-- twice. Notice that the narrator does not say, "Job THOUGHT HE WAS blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil." Does the Bible always immediately explain everything? No! It requires and open mind...thinking outside the box and not jumping on a few words and making it the end all, be all, of all truth. Again, the forest is obstructing your view of the trees. You need help.... Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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