Scope of Discussion

First, let's point out what this forum is not. It is not an apologist's haven, either for creationism or evolution. It is neutral. On the other hand, that does not mean than either or both points of view are unwelcome. Quite the contrary, let us emphasize that all points of view, on topic, are both welcome and solicited.

We recognize that we are the guests of Club Adventist. By and large, Adventism as a denomination has staked out a piece of territory here, of which we are quite aware. That said, please do note that the positions and opinions of the moderators are only that - theirs and theirs alone ... no better and no worse than those of any other honest inquirer. It is our goal that our approaches not be an issue. Truth and its pursuit are the issues. And so let us repeat again, this is not a sanctuary for any particular set of views. It is a forum for discussion.

It is also a limited forum. Limited in that anything off topic is not acceptable. And limited in that the forum, while open to reading by anyone, can only be posted to by Origins members. See Rules of Conduct for how to become a member with posting rights.

It is a deliberative forum. Rapidfire exchanges are not encouraged. In fact, part of the reason for its structure is to assure this facet of its existence. That doesn't mean that brief posts are not allowed. Even single word posts are OK as long as they are within the guidelines. Just remember, it won't show up instantly.

Here is what may be posted/discussed:

1. It must have something to do with Origins. The focus may be broad or narrow. And asides are acceptable as long as they remain on topic within the larger context (just as in what a sidebar is to a main story in a news magazine.)

Advocacy, critiques, and comments are welcomed and encouraged ...

2. ... for either creationism (recent or ancient) or evolution (theistic or atheistic/naturalistic) or for any other position or synthesis, with regard to biological processes.

3. ... geological and cosmological topics are also welcome, whether long age or short term. (Biological processes need not be the only area of discussion.)

4. Open-ended questions are quite in place. As are honest musings and commentaries.

5. Any other thoughts or comments not covered by the above, as long as they are on the topic of Origins are welcome.

Please Note: This does include forays into humor, relative to the forum's scope. In fact, entire humor threads are quite welcome. The Good Book says "a merry heart doeth good like a medicine." Lightening up at times is a necessary relief among heavy matters. Just follow the guidelines in Rules of Conduct.

There is an additional aspect to the approach to our subject that was pointed out by the first post of one of our earliest members. Bevin captured it well enough, that we've made it a part of the forum's basics. We think almost everyone will find it helpful and useful. Have a look at "The Basics - Dimensions of Origins Discussions." Thanks, Bevin.

G'day and Best Regards,
Bravus and NormF

Rules of Conduct

We are attempting "to do what they say can't be done": In its simplest terms, this is intended to be a Forum about Origins, without rancor.

If that is to be done, there are certain guidelines that must be rigidly followed and enforced.

Number One: no personal attacks will be allowed. The TOPIC is the subject, not personalities. And the Second Rule is like unto it: keep it clean, honest, and above board. Thoughtful and considered would be nice, too.

To insure the basic rules, this may well be the most tightly moderated Forum on this site. No personal attacks, no foul language, not even vegetarian swear words will be tolerated. Keep it on topic ... on topic - nothing more, and nothing less.

How To Enable Posting:
In order to post, you must first be accepted as a posting member. Contact Bravus with your request for membership; he will be handling the mechanics of this process. Applications may be made at any time; there is no deadline or closure.

The Private Message tool or regular e-mail are the preferred venues for this purpose. To apply via the latter, Bravus may be reached at bravus@gmail.com. Membership evaluations are made jointly as needed by the moderators. Applicants who do not have an established "portfolio" of posts known to either moderator will receive a provisional 30-day membership. Others may also be issued provisional membership at the discretion of the moderators. For such members, upon completion of this evaluative period, membership automatically rolls over into full membership, unless rules violations during this time result in disqualification.

You will be notified of your Origins membership and its status upon acceptance. If you still have any questions, feel free to contact either of us.

The rest of what's written here is the fine print. Skip it or skim it as desired. But it will be followed closely by the moderators.

* * *

All posts are subject to editing by the moderators to insure full compliance. In fact, if the content is too far removed from the guidelines, it may not get posted at all. You will be notified privately of full deletions or non-post incidents if that happens.

With that in mind, if you follow the guidelines, the sense of your thoughts is likely to be much clearer if you follow the guidelines than if we edit them into compliance. We will make no attempt to copy edit for continuity or logic. The only actions we will take are to either remove offending content or simply disallow a post outright. Therefore, we strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with the guidelines and follow them. If nothing else, what you post is much more likely to make sense that way.

At least initially, and later as deemed necessary, when a post is edited, the rule number applicable will be noted with the deletion notice. We are attempting to minimize arbitrariness and subjective decision making as much as possible.

Actions of the moderators are subject to questioning; and if your protest is valid, the error will be corrected.

These rules are subject to revision and correction as necessary. In the event that a moderator's actions do not comport with the rules, the rules take precedence, except as noted in Rule 8 below. Should something unforseen develop, retrograde application of the rules may be required.

Rules:

1. Do not attack anyone. Except to reference things such as someone else's post/proposition/theorem, refrain from using anyone else's name, nick, or initials. Polite greetings and personal exchanges (within reason as for length), however, are always acceptable.

2. Do not disparage anyone else's words. Point out the faults, weaknesses, shortcomings, or oversights of the content instead, not those of its proponent(s) and his or her words.

3. Speak in context and do take the time to situate what you write in that, but do not simply fill your post with long, uncommented collections of Biblical texts or quotations from authorities. That is not context. If you do use extended quotes, make sure they are apropos and logically sequential. Take the time to provide the logical transitions necessary, using both introductory comments of your own and your segues from quote to quote. Do not assume the logic is obvious to all. State the logic as you see it, in clear terms, for all to read. Failure to do this invites others to challenge you rather than your thoughts. For this reason, examples of such are subject to being nipped in the bud by the moderators.

4. Do not attempt to use quotes from published vitriolic writings (i.e., materials that are in noncompliance with these house rules) as a way to circumvent the rules. They will not be posted.

5. The full spectrum of thought is open on this topic, but posts that are patently foolish or meaningless are subject to deletion and/or exclusion. This will be done on an item-by-item basis and may take longer to be implemented, to allow for appropriate review as necessary, in order to avoid shortsightedness by the moderators.

6. Keep a civil tongue. Let your yeas be yea, and your nays be nay. In this forum, even vegetarian swear words, along with all inflammatory invective, and loaded words are completely unacceptable. Their use simply invites flame wars and will not be tolerated. Likewise, slamming someone else's spelling or grammar is uncalled for and unacceptable. This is a discussion forum, not an English class. Such pedantry will not be tolerated either.

7. If you feel the need to protest something regarding your posts or an infraction you perceive in others posts in this forum, you are free to do so. Do not expect to post your concerns though. Use e-mails or PMs to either moderator. You will receive a prompt hearing and a thorough response. Recourse to the administration is possible as appropriate, if it is needed.

8. Major abuse of these rules will subject the violator to losing posting privileges, either temporarily or permanently. Decisions of the moderators in this regard are final. Additional sanctions by CA's administrators are possible; they are administered under those rules and guidelines.

Bottom line: post, read, enjoy, and learn together.

G'day and Best Regards,
Bravus and NormF

Dimensions of Origins Discussion

There are several dimensions to the discussion of origins, including:

* The many possible explanations of the origins of Earth and its life forms,
* How to choose between them,
* What to do about the choices we and others make.

All too often, labels distort the understanding of their contents, yet they do provide convenient handles. For the sake of having that convenience, we're labeling these three, but with rather generic tags.

Dimension 1:

* Earth was formed out of cosmic matter billions of years ago, and life as we know it developed from the outworkings of natural laws similar to those we see around us today,
* There is enough evidence left of this process in the earth and its life forms, and it can be examined scientifically sufficiently, to convince one to prefer scientific models over the literal readings some make of Genesis and other parts of the Bible, and
* One should help others to see the input information s/he has seen and the resulting conclusions, but not compel them to make this selection for themselves.

Dimension 2:

* Earth and life as we know it was formed out of don’t-know-what by God a few thousand years ago, and there was an Eden, a Fall, and a Flood,
* The evidence left of this process in the earth and its life forms is too complex to be reliably examined scientifically and so one does not study or even significantly contemplate the science, and
* The issue is not important enough to let it become a source of friction between Christians.

The third dimension (next), as we have it enumerated here, has a very Adventist flavor about it, though it is not official Seventh-day Adventist policy. It was initially posited by editor Clifford Goldstein, writing in Adventist Review. There are, however, many similar variations on this theme, depending on the socio-religious context they from which they come. We're citing this one this way because of the SDA-related context of Club Adventist.

Dimension 3:

* Earth and life as we know it was formed out of don’t-know-what by God a few thousand years ago, and there was an Eden, a Fall, and a Flood,
* Evidence left of this process in the earth and its life forms is reliable and can be reliably examined scientifically, and that properly done, science supports this view, and
* The issue is important enough to fire denominational Adventist workers from their ecclesiastical employment for not holding this view; and while other SDA members who do not hold this view should not be disfellowshipped, they should voluntarily leave the denomination.

There are other variants of these three; and in particular, the third component of each one doesn't always match the couplings shown. While recognizing that, we feel these three dimensions are sufficiently typical to warrant being shown as we have them here.

In our experience, confusion often arises when these matters are combined in a single discussion. We in Origins Forum hope it can be minimized by referring to and making use of this guideline.

[Adapted. Our thanks to Bevin for the original contribution. -- Bravus & NormF]

[Bevin's original post, "Dimensions of Origins Discussions," is available elsewhere in this forum for further comment and discussion.]

**bump**

I have never heard this argument so I will make it.
One of my main reasons for not believing in evolution is the fact that human intelligence is technically an energy source. Human intellectual capacity can be given a numerical value that would be a sum of the brains capability.

If I am right in this assumption then the question would be, how is evolution possible; how can a body with less (intellectual) energy create an object with more energy? The rules that govern energy prevent all forms of energy increase. (The rules like inertia, or equal opposite reaction, or the fact that energy can't be created or destroyed.)

My main argument is this...
A one celled organism should not be able to create a human brain without the energy of a human mother. Nothing else in the universe is capable of self-regulated energy increase. So how come no scientist has explained what fuels evolution. It is true that cells can repeat themselves (repetition does not break any laws), but it may be impossible for an object to make itself evolve.

If my previous arguments are true then this would also mean that the human brain had to be created by an object with more intellectual capacity than itself. This may actually prove that God has to exist for mathematical reasons. We had to be created by something smarter with more energy than us. (Remember the brain can be classified as an energy source because of it's capabilities.)