Overcome what?

Does beleiving in Christ give us power over sin? Do people still believe in this, or is it enough to have forgiveness of past sins through the Cross?

We overcome because Jesus overcame for us. And in the end .... we know the end of the story. WE WIN.

The world, the devil, and the flesh!

"Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Rom 6:16 ESV

"The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever." Jn 8:35 ESV

"For everyone who has been born of God, overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith." 1 Jn 5:4 ESV.

"The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death." Rev 2:11 ESV.

Gerry

All sin? Remember sin, according to Christ, is much more than just keeping the law as it reads. Just because I don't murder someone doesn't mean I am a law keeper because the spirit of the law requires me not to hate my enemies. If I hate someone, even someone that has done terrible things to me or my family, I am (according to the law) a murderer.

Now having said that believing in Christ does open doors to maturity. We can grow through Christ, but at the same time we can never say that we are perfect. We are only perfect "in Christ".

Rob

Good point Rob.

ALL willful sin!

Gerry

All sin is willful.

All willfully sin.

Of course we can overcome sin in our life if we have God's Spirit leading us and follow His lead and use His power to overcome.

It isn't a question of overcoming our sinfulness. Nor is it a question of overcoming every sin at the same moment. It is overcoming those sins that the Holy Spirit points out to us, and He doesn't point out every sin in our life at the same time. Otherwise we would be overwhelmed and give up.

The question is really one of whether we will walk by faith or by sight-- whether we take the Bible as it reads, or whether we want to believe it is not possible to overcome sin. If we accept the Bible and Ellen White's writings as they read, we can't help but know that we may overcome sin through God's grace and power.

I think the #1 reason we don't overcome sin is that we love the sin. If we hated the sin, and if we saw what sin does and did to Christ, we would be much more willing to stop it. For instance, if I knew that every time I committed a certain sin, one of my daughters would have to die-- well, you may be sure I would not have the attitude of, "Oh well, no big deal, God will just have to forgive me."

The only way anyone can say that all sin is willful is if they refuse to accept the evidence of the dictionary, the Bible, and Ellen White. We've been through that many times before and shown page after page of evidence that all sin is not willful.

It is like someone's repeating over and over again that everyone who commits a crime does so willfully, deliberately, and with premeditation. It should be obvious to anyone that there is a distinction between willful, planned and deliberate acts and those that are the result of ignorance, weakness, mental defects, etc. etc. The same difference pertains to the law in any human society.

That is what the New Birth, or being born of the Spirit, is all about. When God changes us, he does not only change our acts or behavior but he changes how we think and even how we feel. Of course that doesn't all happen at one time or overnight. But as we cooperate with God and as we walk with Him by faith, He does change our thinking and feelings so that they are more and more in harmony with the way He thinks.

For instance, instead of hating someone who we think does us wrong, we will find that we are thinking about their salvation and about helping them and praying for them. We won't even want to do bad things to them in return. God is all about changing minds, lives and characters.

I'm thinking along the lines of whether we believe that God can help others do things like heal from deep wounds or overcome addictions.

I'm talking about what power is available to us through Jesus for the right now. Is Jesus the answer only for past sins or can I recommend Jesus to those who are having a problem with drug addiction or porn addiction?

I think that John317 understands what I mean. Sometimes the words don't type as fast as I think them.

Good try. But you are thinking far too small. When we know God as it is our privilege to know God ... there will be NO sin in our life. That is what is available to us. When we sin ... it is because we have refused to know God as we could know Him. This includes sins that we have no understanding or knowledge of. It includes willful and nonwillful sin. In this manner ... all sins are willful. Let's not put any limits on God. As Ellen White says ... There is no excuse for sin.

Saying over and over that our sins are not willful ... does not make it so. All of us have the opportunity to know God and to serve Him as we should. It is a fact that we willfully refuse obedience that is offered to us by God.

Romans 3:21/1 John 1:8 says perfection, this side of eternity, isn't going to happen. Why do you place so much emphasis on perfection, John? I feel you are making it a requirement for heaven.

What I am saying is can we offer to non-Christians freedom from their sins with Christ?

Can the alcoholic be healed through Jesus? Can the porn freak give the habit up through Christ?

Can we offer a non-believer more than forgiveness of sins through our Saviour, or is that it?

What all does grace include?

Sometimes I wonder if we limit the power of the Gospel by our trying to avoid being legalistic.

Just a thought.

You can recommend Jesus for drugs, porn, etc. But unlike justification by faith, Christian living is hard. The yielding of the nature and it's passionate desires to God requires a struggle, of which I fail in certain areas again and again. So the problem is not God, it's my surrender.

On the other hand we can't look at our failures...our lost struggles and say because we are not measuring up that we are lost. That's the problem I have with traditional Adventism because it teaches just that. The correct view is to have the assurance of salvation and realize that when we fail (and EGW says we will often weep at the feet of Christ) we aren't lost.

Rob

It is useless talking to someone who can't tell the difference between premeditated murder and involuntary manslaughter.

Gerry

If failures aren't lost and have the assurance of salvation, I'd like to see evidence from Scripture. What I see in Scripture is that victors/overcomers, those who endure/hold fast to the end have that assrance, not failures.

Gerry

How true. Praise God. The One who was not a failure .... is our Saviour and Redeemer. He succeeded that I might fail. He is my substitute.

Bible reference, please?

Gerry

Did Jesus Christ succeed in order that you and I might fail? Could you explain what you mean? It sounds as if you are saying that God plans for us to fail.

Ellen White says very clearly that Jesus succeeded in order that we might also obey God, not in order for us to fail. (See Sons and Daughters of God, p. 24, for instance.) We can be an overcomer just as Christ was an overcomer.

The Bible says the same thing. Jesus didn't fulfill the law so that we don't need to obey God's law. Read Romans 8: 1-4: God sent His Son as a human being in order that we might fail? NO-- but God sent the Son "in order that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after flesh but after the Spirit."

How does our failure glorify God? Does failure demonstrate, or witness to, the power of Christ in us?

Sounds like glorifying losers isn't it?

While the Bible begins with a failure, it ends in victory!!!

Gerry

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11-14 ESV

Notice what grace accomplishes for the believer:
1) Grace brings salvation.
2) Grace trains [Gk to teach, instruct, cause to learn] the believer to renounce [Gk to deny, reject, to refuse, not to accept] ungodliness and worldly passions, i.e. sin
3) Grace trains the believer to live self-controlled, upright [Gk righteously], and godly lives in the present age. NOT by and by when Jesus comes, but while waiting for His coming.
4) Grace paid the redemption price in the person of Jesus Christ from ALL lawlessness.
5) Grace purifies believers to be His own possession.
6) Grace does all these for believers so that they will be "zealous for good works."
7) Grace brings about obedience that springs from faith, Rom 1:5.

"Without grace the sinner is in a hopeless condition, but through divine grace, supernatural power is imparted and works on the mind and heart and character. Sin is discerned in its hateful nature and is finally driven from the soul temple." FW 100.

Gerry

Yes. Jesus is our victory. I'll go to the bank based on what He did ... anyday.

One interesting point that I've just read recently was:

An atheist was invited to visit several churches with a pastor, with the intention of writing a book based on their experience together.

They included large churches like Saddleback and Willow Creek in their travels.

The atheist noticed that in many of them, all one had to do to acquire the salvation was to "say the magic words" and they could consider it all done. Where he was coming from, he thought that a bit superficial.

Then the author who told the story noted that there is almost no difference between behaviourly between many Christians and the world.

That was what got me thinking about this thread's topic. If there is no difference behaviourwise between Christians and the world, then why be a Christian at all?

To me, Jesus is more than salvation from sins. I, too, like Gerry noted above, believe that God's grace gives humans hope for happiness and victory in life today.

I also appreciate Robert's comment about the difficulty in the daily walk.

It is difficult to do it without the Lord's help- for sure! We need to die daily to self. That in itself is hard to give up, although I don't know why knowing the benefits of living under grace.

Sometimes the answer is to just DO IT. Even if you don't feel like it, your feelings can follow along a rational decision. I've learned that. I don't have to be a slave to feelings, as tempting as it is.

As easy as it is for others to accuse of legalism, it's a battle we are in, whether we want to admit it or not.

Thoughts?

If the victorious Jesus is living in the believer, then it should be seen in his/her victorious living, not in failing/losing.

Gerry

>>...it should be seen in his/her victorious living, not in failing/losing.<<

I am put to mind the trials of Job and the perception expressed vis-à-vis the fact that Gd had declared Job perfect. It kinda turns upon how "victorious living and failing/losing" are perceived, yes?

I would add an aside: per 'sin', there is the dichotomy of how one, led by the Spirit, apprehends a strict construction re the sixth commandment against 'killing' - in time of war. There is also the counterpart who is compelled by that same Spirit to take up arms in defense of family, home, and State. Doesn't it all come down to:

each Xtian is led to fulfill that which is in his or her sphere according to how Spirit impresses the individual's conscience ('perfection') - and therein, by and large, lies the definition of 'sin' per se? ...all things considered and in perspective.

Jesus, through the HS, is living in you...true...but, this doesn't automatically equate to victory. Surrender of self - giving up and letting God have the fight is the hardest battle ever fought. God doesn't just automatically take over. He has to have permission.

Rob

Agreed! What you said reminds me of a quote:

"The Christian life ia a battle nd a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight - the greatest battle that was ever fought by man - is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up.....

We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and cooperation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to cooperate with God.

The victory is not won without much earnest prayer, without the humbling of self at every step. Our will is not to be forced into cooperation with divine agencies, but it must be voluntarily submitted." MB 141-142

"The only hope for us if we would overcome is to unite our will to God's will and work in cooperation with Him, hour by hour and day by day." Ibid, 143.

Gerry

If Jesus is our victory, and we really mean that, won't there be a big difference between our lives and the lives of those who do not accept Jesus' victory?

What is to attract people to Jesus' victory if those who claim the victory are continually defeated the same as non-Christians? Don't they have a right to ask where's the evidence of the victory and the power?

"There is power, power, power in the blood,
in the precious blood of the Lamb."

Dynamite power-- every day. That is good news.

It appears that righteousness by faith gets a lot higher marks in the Word than righteousness by "sin."

Said Paul:
"Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--" Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved."


oG

Exactly. Good verse. Paul through the Spirit saw that coming. And no doubt he saw it at that very time, too. I've read that Luther had to combat the same mistaken concept of grace. There were those who thought that was Luther's meaning but they couldn't have been more wrong.