#179657 - 08/08/08 01:22 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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This is a grotesque perversion of the W-O-R-D -- of God, namely. Shameless, fearless! Please show us your evidence from Greek-English Lexicons and from texts of Greek grammar. What is the name of a single well-known, highly respected Greek scholar who teaches that the word should be translated as "Sabbath" in those verses under discussion? How do you explain the fact that the overwhelming majority--literally thousands, if you count all those involved in translation work of the many Bible published-- of professional translators of Koine Greek have chosen to translate it as "week" in those verses?
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Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#179660 - 08/08/08 01:28 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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John3:17, "John3:17: "Can you give me the name or title of a standard Greek/English Lexicon which says the word should be translated as Sabbath in either Luke 24:1 or Matt. 28:1?""
GE: It's no cardinal text or 'argument' as far as Jesus' resurrection as such is concerned; NEVERTHELESS I have NEVER come accross a Greek 'lexicon' or whatever that explains the word 'sabbatohn' in Lk24:1 as something else than simply and honestly correctly, "the First Day of the week" = 'Monday'. This is a very, minor, 'issue'; it's NO 'issue' in fact. The first day of the week is Sunday, isn't it? The point is, friend, do you have any evidence from the Greek-English Lexicons which speak of sabbaton as meaning "Sabbath" in Luke 24: 1 and Matt. 28: 1? All of the ones I have say it refers to "week" in those verses. For instance, see Thayer's Lexicon, p. 566. Please tell how that reads if you have access to it.
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Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#179661 - 08/08/08 01:32 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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John3:17, "John3:17: "Can you give me the name or title of a standard Greek/English Lexicon which says the word should be translated as Sabbath in either Luke 24:1 or Matt. 28:1?""
GE: It's no cardinal text or 'argument' as far as Jesus' resurrection as such is concerned; NEVERTHELESS I have NEVER come accross a Greek 'lexicon' or whatever that explains the word 'sabbatohn' in Lk24:1 as something else than simply and honestly correctly, "the First Day of the week" = 'Monday'. This is a very, minor, 'issue'; it's NO 'issue' in fact. Are you familiar with the Didache? It was written in the same Greek as the NT was written in, Koine. It was written about 150 AD. How does it use the word sabbaton? If you have access to the Didache, see chapter 8. What does it say?
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Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#179664 - 08/08/08 01:36 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: John317]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 26
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John3:17: "Do you believe in and keep the seventh-day Sabbath? I myself do."
GE: I do not believe 'IN' the Sabbath; I believe the Sabbath; with thankfulness in my heart to God, Yes, I do! Why do I believe the Sabbath "The Sabbath of the LORD your God" "the Lord (Jesus') Day"? Because on it, He rose from the dead. Praise God! THIS, was why the Church at first believed and 'kept' or 'sanctified' the Seventh Day Sabbath; Paul vividly describes this basis, reason and motive in Colossians 2 from verse 12 on up to verse 19, including, verses 16 and 17! Another Scripture manipulated wrangled and garbled by the untouchable saints who 'translate' the Bible for you and me. To war! soldier of Christ, to war!
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#179667 - 08/08/08 01:42 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 26
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John3:17: "Are you familiar with the Didache? It was written in the same Greek as the NT was written in, Koine. It was written about 150 AD. How does it use the word sabbaton?"
GE: Yes, I am. I had a big argument with my Greek lecturer on its dating which gives rise to the question of when the weekdays were given planetory names. It cannot be dated much later than 100AD; 150 is far too late. But that was decades ago; I cannot remember the details. All I still accept for certain is that the First Day is not therein mentioned or implied for having been the day of Jesus' resurrection or of the Church's keeping. That I'll still put my head on the block for.
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#179669 - 08/08/08 01:44 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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John3:17: "Do you believe in and keep the seventh-day Sabbath? I myself do."
GE: I do not believe 'IN' the Sabbath; I believe the Sabbath; with thankfulness in my heart to God, Yes, I do! Why do I believe the Sabbath "The Sabbath of the LORD your God" "the Lord (Jesus') Day"? Because on it, He rose from the dead. Praise God! THIS, was why the Church at first believed and 'kept' or 'sanctified' the Seventh Day Sabbath; Paul vividly describes this basis, reason and motive in Colossians 2 from verse 12 on up to verse 19, including, verses 16 and 17! Another Scripture manipulated wrangled and garbled by the untouchable saints who 'translate' the Bible for you and me. To war! soldier of Christ, to war! I'm glad you believe that God still wants people to keep the seventh-day Sabbath. Could you please explain your earlier remark which I quote below. Are you a "Sabbatharians"? I'd never heard of one of those. I suppose I am one of them since I believe in and keep the Sabbath, however. Gerhard Ebersoeh-- O, how the Sundaydarians hate me for this vexing fact removed from under the rubble of Sunday-prejudice. But strange, that their protests are only surpassed by the objections of the Sabbatharians!
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Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#179670 - 08/08/08 01:48 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 26
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I have the Teaching on my shelves, but will definitely not have the time to refresh memory. If you go to Book 5, Second Century', you will see I left space open where it should have fitted in chronologically. It's one of those things I don't believe I'll ever find the time to finish --- and there are many others!
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#179671 - 08/08/08 01:51 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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John3:17: "Are you familiar with the Didache? It was written in the same Greek as the NT was written in, Koine. It was written about 150 AD. How does it use the word sabbaton?"
GE: Yes, I am. I had a big argument with my Greek lecturer on its dating which gives rise to the question of when the weekdays were given planetory names. It cannot be dated much later than 100AD; 150 is far too late. But that was decades ago; I cannot remember the details. All I still accept for certain is that the First Day is not therein mentioned or implied for having been the day of Jesus' resurrection or of the Church's keeping. That I'll still put my head on the block for. This is just it, Gerhard; it does not mention the first day. It doesn't have to. Have you read the original Greek of the 8th chapter of the Didache? The point is, how does it use the word sabbaton that is found in Matt. 28: 1 and Luke 24: 1, etc.? I won't quibble about the dating of the document. Most authorities on the subject date it between 150 and 200 AD, but if you want to say it was dated closer to 100 AD, that is fine with me. The point is that its Greek is the same as in the NT. There's no difference. From Wikipedia: The Didache (Koine Greek: in English, IPA: in Modern Greek) is the common name of a brief early Christian treatise (dated by most scholars to the late first/early second century), containing instructions for Christian communities.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#179672 - 08/08/08 01:58 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 26
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John3:17: "The point is, friend, do you have any evidence from the Greek-English Lexicons which speak of sabbaton as meaning "Sabbath" in Luke 24: 1 and Matt. 28: 1?"
GE: First: NO 'lexicon' is 'evidence'. The writers of the BEST 'lexicons' would be the first to confirm that. The ONLY 'Evidence' - for the 'good' lexicographers, -- they will tell you -- is the Scriptures.
Then, to repeat, I have never read a 'lexicon' or 'concordance' or 'dictionary' that says something else than that 'sabbatohn' in Lk24:1 means 'week'. "tehi miai (hehmerai) sabbatohn" = On the First Day of the week" --- what can be simpler or truer? That it means 'Sunday'? That is what I believe!
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#179673 - 08/08/08 01:58 AM
Re: sabbaton
[Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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I have the Teaching on my shelves, but will definitely not have the time to refresh memory. If you go to Book 5, Second Century', you will see I left space open where it should have fitted in chronologically. It's one of those things I don't believe I'll ever find the time to finish --- and there are many others! OK, well, please check out Didache 8. If you don't have it in Greek, there is an online copy of it that you can refer to in the original language. I don't know if you are emotionally attached to the meaning being "sabbath" rather than week, but it is usually best to go by the evidence. The evidence is overwhelming that it means "week" in the verses we are talking about. Didache 8 uses the word sabbaton to mean "fifth day of the week." It cannot possibly mean "fifth of the sabbaths" because it is talking about the various days of the week. It names four different days of the week, and I do not know of anyone who has ever even attempted to dispute that fact. Every single translation of the Didache translates those words to mean the same thing. Not a single variation. What day of the week do you suppose is "the fifth day of the week"?
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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