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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
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#179687 - 08/08/08 02:40 AM Re: sabbaton [Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
Gerhard Ebersoeh Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 26
"But your argument is ignoring some fundamental facts about the use of languages. One of them is that just because words are related or perhaps even spelled the same does not mean that they mean the same thing. "

GE:
Are you now arguing 'sabbatohn' means 'week'? Then you argue against yourself!

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#179689 - 08/08/08 02:42 AM Re: sabbaton [Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10388
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Gerhard Ebersoeh
"OK, but your reference here is to "someone" who you are not even sure you are quoting correctly. "

GE:
I'm very sure I understood him correctly; What could be wrong with such thinking? It's just logical! But why be dogmatic about it? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO GAIN IF 'SABBATOHN' EXCLUSIVELY AND INVARIABLY INDICATED 'SABBATH' AND NEVER, 'WEEK'?


OK, the discussion is interesting, anyway. I am simply unconvinced because of the lack of what I consider valid use of evidence and reasoning. But thanks for your participation.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#179691 - 08/08/08 02:45 AM Re: sabbaton [Re: John317]
Gerhard Ebersoeh Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 26
"1) You do not believe, then, that Lexicons or dictionaries are any kind of evidence as to the meaning of a word? You don't consult them? "

GE:
I think we are talking just to talk. I asked you WHY you insist 'sabbatohn' MUST mean just the one or the other, either 'week', or, 'sabbath' --- or whatever, because I cannot understand you and don't see what I should understand you. I only tell you when the translators in Mt28:1 translate "Sabbath" in phrase a, they are right; and when they translate "week" in phrase b, they are also right. And there is NO other way you or any 'lexicon' is going to make it work or make sense otherwise.

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#179692 - 08/08/08 02:53 AM Re: sabbaton [Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
Gerhard Ebersoeh Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 26
The essence I hoped would be the Divine Truth of the Word of God, that Christ rose from the dead "In Sabbath's-time, on the Sabbath Day, in the fulness of the Sabbath Day, in and with (its) very being light before the First Day of the week"; and NOT, on the First Day of the week as Justin Martyr began to make the world believe and modern 'translations' and 'versions' mutilate the Word of God. That was my point: That the Christian Church should have believed the Seventh Day Sabbath because on it Christ rose from the dead and in and with His resurrection, raised into eternal life the redeemed. That it is a joyful Message of Faith in God in Christ!

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#179694 - 08/08/08 03:04 AM Re: sabbaton [Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10388
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Gerhard Ebersoeh
The essence I hoped would be the Divine Truth of the Word of God, that Christ rose from the dead "In Sabbath's-time, on the Sabbath Day, in the fulness of the Sabbath Day, in and with (its) very being light before the First Day of the week"; and NOT, on the First Day of the week as Justin Martyr began to make the world believe and modern 'translations' and 'versions' mutilate the Word of God. That was my point: That the Christian Church should have believed the Seventh Day Sabbath because on it Christ rose from the dead and in and with His resurrection, raised into eternal life the redeemed. That it is a joyful Message of Faith in God in Christ!


Please explain how the essence of the gospel and the necessity of keeping the commandments is changed by believing that Jesus died on Friday and rose on the first day of the week.

I can't agree with the following statement you made about the consequences of believing that Jesus rose on Sunday:

Quote:
Gerhard---In order for Sunday to have taken the place of the Sabbath under the New Covenant, it would have been necessary for the change that Jesus rose from the dead on the First Day of the week -- which He -- unfortunately for the Sundaydarians -- did NOT!


In order for Sunday to part of the New Covenant, it would have had to be part of it BEFORE it was ratified, and the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ at the moment He gave up His life for us. Therefore, the fact that he rose from the dead on Sunday morning has nothing whatever to do with making Sunday a special day under the New Covenant.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#179704 - 08/08/08 04:02 AM Re: sabbaton [Re: Gerhard Ebersoeh]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10388
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Gerhard Ebersoeh
"But your argument is ignoring some fundamental facts about the use of languages. One of them is that just because words are related or perhaps even spelled the same does not mean that they mean the same thing. "

GE:
Are you now arguing 'sabbatohn' means 'week'? Then you argue against yourself!


No, I am arguing that sabbaton can sometimes mean week depending on the context. There is certainly nothing whatsoever unusual about that.

This is where it would be a good idea to study and be well acquainted with the Greek-English Lexicons.

As you must realize there are many Greek words in the NT whose meaning is determined by the context. One such is the word dikaosunee. See Romans 6:18 and 5:21. The same word can mean either righteousness or justification.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


Top
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