sabbaton=either seventh day(sabbath) or seven days(week)

A few people mostly Sunday worshipers have been recently using this argument.

They focus on Matthew 28:1


The reason why is, this verse can be translated.



They claim this means there were two Sabbaths one on Saturday and when that day ended an new Sabbath(Sunday) began.

But obviously this ignores the fact that the word Sabbath can be translated as week.

Luke 18:12


And also remember there is no evidence of the sabbath being changed and there is evidense in Hebrew 4:9 that the sabbatismos remains. Also in the book of Acts, the apostles worshipped on Saturday.

Because the word "sabbath" can be translated as 'week.' This may be the correct reading of Colossians 2:16,17. “Let no man judge you in food or drink or respect of a holyday, or a holy new month or a holy week. Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body (image) is of Christ.”

I added the word holy in the last two.

There are a number of solid reasons that this understanding cannot be correct: that is, that Matt. 28:1 refers to "the end of the sabbaths."

1) A major reason, but one usually not mentioned, is that the Didache, written in the early 2nd century AD, proves that Luke 24: 1 should be translated "first day of the week." The Didache uses sabbatwn-- plural-- for "week." (See Didache 8: 1.)

2) It cannot mean the end of the weekly Sabbath, because we know that Christians, including the Apostle Paul, continued to keep the weekly Sabbath and worshipped along with the Jews in their synagogues on that day. See Acts 13: 42, 44; 16: 13. According to 5th century church historians, Sozoman and Socrates, the vast majority of the Christian church (except for Rome and Alexandria-- due to "a custom," not to NT doctrine) continued to keep the weekly Sabbath up to their own day, which is hardly likely to have happened if they understood Matt. 28: 1 to teach that all the sabbaths were abolished.

3) 98% of the translations read, "in the end of the week," and there is good reason why virtually all experts in Koine Greek agree that it should read this way.

4) All of the standard and best Greek dictionaries and lexicons give "week" here and not "sabbaths."

5) Certainly if the Jewish sabbath had all come to an end, Acts 17: 2 would not continue to call the seventh-day Sabbath "the Sabbath." Never once does the Bible call it "the Jewish Sabbath" or indicate that it was ended. Acts 13: 42, 44; 16: 13 clearly call it "the sabbath."

6) For me personally, the greatest proof that the seventh-day Sabbath remains under the New Covenant, is that no change concerning the Sabbath was mentioned before the death of Christ. This is proved by Luke 23: 56 where it says that after Christ died, Jesus' disciples still kept the Sabbath according to the commandment. So they knew nothing whatever about a change that was to take place after His death. (Also compare Matt 24: 20 where Jesus clearly referred to "the sabbath" as being yet future.)

In order for Sunday to have taken the place of the Sabbath under the New Covenant, it would have been necessary for the change to be instituted before the New Covenant was ratified, not AFTERWARDS. Hebrews 4: 9 points in a positive way to the weekly Sabbath as a reminder of God's salvation, and it does not in any way suggest that the seventh-day Sabbath had been abolished or changed.

Good post john317.
Also Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments. He also says that he did not come to change but to fullfill the law. And also in Revelation he mentions that the remnant will be keeping the ten commandments. And besides the catholic church mentions that they changed the day not God. I think that that is one of there major beefs with the protestant churches.

pkrause

I never heard this one, I wish I hade known this one a few months ago. I have to tell my boss. A few months ago I had this coworker that would go on and on trying to disprove Adventism. He was the first one I had heard use the Matthew 28:1 verse. He kept on saying the scholars got it wrong when they translated it as week and stuff.

Here are links to the Didache-- "the Teachings of the Twelve"-- written about 150 AD.

Look for chapter 8-- "on fast days and prayer", and then see the words, "fifth day of the WEEK," i.e., Thursday. (Some translations simply read "Thursdays.") The original Greek reads, "pempte sabbatwn," meaning "fifth day of the week." This is the way all translations read.

It is also significant that in this same chapter, Friday is referred to as "the day of preparation" [i.e., preparation of the Sabbath, Saturday].

Below you will find a link to the original Greek text as well as to several different translations:

http://ivanlewis.com/Didache/didache.html

http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/texteapo/didache-greek.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

Umm, I hesitate to post to this board as the parameters set forth are rather clique-claquish and I find sufficient other avenues which suit my tastes more satisfactorily. That said,

>>deutera sabbatwn," meaning "fifth...<<

...disabuse me.

What does "deutera sabbatwn" mean? How is it to be translated? [ed. corrected to read: "pempte sabbatwn"]

It is relevant to the question of how Matt. 28: 1 should read, whether "first day of the week" or, as a few prefer it, "first of the sabbaths."

The words "deutera sabbatwn" are ALWAYS translated "the fifth day of the week," never "the fifth of the sabbaths." [ed. this is incorrect. The Greek for "fifth" is pempte, not deutera.]

It is one more proof that all of the Greek lexicons are correct when they say that Matt. 28: 1 should read just as it does in practically all of the translations of that verse.

You may be experiencing what I often experience, that is,

an infinity loop.

Again, disabuse me should I err, but - doesn't deutera indicate a relationship to the numeral two - as in second, or other...? and mightn't pemte more correlate to five, fifth, or other - or even, Thursday?

I've chosen not to engage in the Saturday/Sunday issue here, as I find that too often what I post is lost in the many pages of a thread I am only peripherally involved with. I am dealing with the subject in my thread

"Loose ends", shortly; for what it's worth - that is, my two cents...

Thanks very much for your two cents, jasd. Your words proved to be more like a silver dollar if you ask me. You are right: the words translated as "Thursday" or, more literally, as "fifth day of the week" are "pempte sabbatwn." The word sabbatwn is correctly translated here as week, not sabbaths. It wouldn't make sense for it to read, "fifth of the sabbaths," as I'm sure you will agree. It is evidence that it was a common way for the people of that time to write the days of the week, and this is in accordance with virtually all the translations of those words when they occur in the New Testament.

John3:17:
"It is one more proof that all of the Greek lexicons are correct when they say that Matt. 28: 1 should read just as it does in practically all of the translations of that verse."

Gerhard Ebersoehn:
There's BIG difference between older translations -16th to early twentieth centuries - and later ones! Virtually NO 'newer' so-called 'translations' do not follow Justin Martyr who first came up with "On the Day of the Sun" and "after the Sabbath", in stead of the TRUE Greek meaning which is "On the Sabbath Before the First Day of the week".

See my research of over about forty years on this, http://www.biblestudents.co.za

Jesus rose from the dead "In Sabbath's-time", 'Sabbatohn', simply and truly, to the embarrassment of all the 'Sunday-world'!!!

John 3:17:
"5) Certainly if the Jewish sabbath had all come to an end, Acts 17: 2 would not continue to call the seventh-day Sabbath "the Sabbath." Never once does the Bible call it "the Jewish Sabbath" or indicate that it was ended. Acts 13: 42, 44; 16: 13 clearly call it "the sabbath." "

GE:
Here's a VERY interesting 'perspective' on the traditional or usual way of interpretation given to the 'Sabbath's referred to in Acts 13. Paul arrives in Pisidia and enters the Synagogue "on the Sabbath". Then the Jews reject the Gospel, and the heathen believers ask Paul to preach the same sermon to them on the "IN-BETWEEN-SABBATH" which I believe was the Sabbath of the Great Day of Judgment or Atonement (That's why John went to Jerusalem.) So the Jews finally got rejected on this Great Day of Judgment, and the HEATHEN AND BELIEVING Jews, on the 'regular' or 'weekly' Sabbath, about the whole town, came to receive the Word of God.

Now here's something great! Luke uses a very special name for the Sabbath Day here: "On The-To-Hear-The-Word-Of-God-Sabbath", Infinitive of Noun-Force!!! This must silence every 'Sunday argument' once for all! If this is not 'PROOF' of the early Church keeping the Sabbath for to worship Jesus Christ, nothing will!

Do you mean to say that "virtually no newer translations follow Justin Martyr'"? If so, I fully agree.

Apparently you are connected in some way with World Tomorrow.

Do I understand you to be saying that Jesus rose "on the Sabbath"? My own understanding is that Jesus rose very early on the first day of the week.

John 3:17:
") For me personally, the greatest proof that the seventh-day Sabbath remains under the New Covenant, is that no change concerning the Sabbath was mentioned before the death of Christ."

GE:
For me, Scripturally, the greatest proof that the Seventh Day Sabbath remains under the New Covenant, is the all-encompassing FACT and TRUTH of Jesus' resurrection from the dead "ON THE SABBATH, IN (its) FULLNESS, IN THE EPICENTRE OF (DAY) LIGHT having tended towards the First Day of the week", "Opse de Sabbatohn tehi epifohskousehi eis Mian (hehmeran) Sabbaton." "For thus concerning the Seventh Day God spake: And God the Seventh Day rested from all his works". God "THUS SPAKE", "through the Son", "in these last days", by resurrection from the dead "the exceeding GREATNESS of his POWER which He WORKED W-H-E-N HE RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD". It is God's Word -- not mine!!!

John3:17:
"Do you mean to say that "virtually no newer translations follow Justin Martyr'"? If so, I fully agree."

GE:
Just the reverse. New 'translations' parrot Justin in his PERVERSION of Matthew 28:1, saying, "After the Sabbath, on the First Day". Compare the KJV and the NKJV!

John£:17:
"Apparently you are connected in some way with World Tomorrow. "

GE:
I do not know what you talk about; I cnnot see what's 'apparent' here, and it's the first time I hear about 'World Tomorrow'

My study has been from a Calvinistic standpoint and persuasion with the help of virtually 'Reformed' scholars only.

John3:17:
"My own understanding is that Jesus rose very early on the first day of the week."

GE:

There is no Scripture that says Jesus rose from the dead on the First Day ... any time! There is JUST ONE Scripture in all of the NT that mentions DIRECTLY AND UNMISTAKEABLY the CIRCUMSTANCE AND TIME of and when Jesus rose from the dead, and that is Mt28:1 .... and it unequivocally literally and once again unmistakeably states "In the Sabbath's fulness of day-light-being (having tended) towards the First Day of the week".

O, how the Sundaydarians hate me for this vexing fact removed from under the rubble of Sunday-prejudice. But strange, that their protests are only surpassed by the objections of the Sabbatharians!

I noticed the following title of an article or letter on your website, and am wondering if you wrote it:


Professor Samuele Bacchiocchi in Cahoots with The Antichrist –

Luke 24: 1 also says that Jesus rose early on the first day of the week. sabbaton in that verse is not Sabbath but week.

I take it that you believe Jesus died on Thursday?

I clicked on a link on your website, which brought up a window connected to the World Tomorrow but I believe it was an ad and not anything related to your site.

Do you believe in and keep the seventh-day Sabbath? I myself do.

John3:17:
"In order for Sunday to have taken the place of the Sabbath under the New Covenant, it would have been necessary for the change to be instituted before the New Covenant was ratified, not AFTERWARDS. Hebrews 4: 9 points in a positive way to the weekly Sabbath as a reminder of God's salvation, and it does not in any way suggest that the seventh-day Sabbath had been abolished or changed. "

GE:
In order for Sunday to have taken the place of the Sabbath under the New Covenant, it would have been necessary for the change that Jesus rose from the dead on the First Day of the week -- which He -- unfortunately for the Sundaydarians -- did NOT! From the turmoil, chaos, nothingness and darkness God created, and, rested, the Seventh Day; When God delivered the Israelites from Egypt, God "worked" for them, and gave them the Sabbath; When God freed the People from the idolatrous rule of Atalia, God on the Sabbath Day, saved them --- and gave them the Sabbath; when God gathered Israel from the nations, He gave them his Sabbaths (Ezekiel), after last redemption, God again gives the Sabbath (Isaiah); but when God saves through Jesus Christ, He abrogates the Sabbath? When He raises Christ from the dead, He skips His Sabbath Day, and favours the day after? That doesn't make sense! What did Jesus heal for so often and challenging on the Sabbath, but would not ultimately give the healing of everlasting life on the Sabbath Day? That is contrary God's dispensations. It's contrary his Promises and contrary Prophecy and Law. A Christian Day of Worship-Rest that is not Resurrection-Sabbath Day, is neither Christian, nor worship or rest day.

The Sabbath to be instituted or ratified needed the New Covenant BEFORE AND AFTERWARDS.

I did.

John3:17:
"Luke 24: 1 also says that Jesus rose early on the first day of the week. sabbaton in that verse is not Sabbath but week."

GE:
You print me the letters that 'say' that from that verse, kindly?!

Uh, sorry to interject, but the God's Word translation renders it, "After the day of worship, as the sun rose on Sunday morning..." How does this fit? Is this an accurate rendition?

John3:17:
"I take it that you believe Jesus died on Thursday? "

GE:
Mk15:42 and Mt27:57.

The newer translations saw their predicament. So they did what they did with Mt28:1; they 'rectified' it. As Samuele Bacchiocchi has said, they wished they could show the Gospel-writers their errors - or with words to the effect - check them in that article.
1Cor15!! I don't tell you fables; I tell you what I have 'received' -- Paul from God through the Scriptures: That Christ died for our sins = first day; that He was buried = second day; and that He rose from the dead "the third day according to the Scriptures"!!! Which Scriptures?? The Passover Scriptures, the Law, Exodus 12, Lv23: Nisan 14 kill the sacrifice; Nisan 15, burn the remains (return it to the earth); the third day of Passover, day of First Sheaf wave Offering: Symbol of Christ resurrected. Cannot count otherwise: Resurrected "In Sabbath's-time"! (Genitive of time, quality and kind) then before the Sabbath Day and when "It was the Preparation day which is the Before-Sabbath (Friday), Buried; then, BEFORE that, and: "When it had become evening already" when Joseph only started out to go ask for Jesus' body -- He still hung on the cross, ... then, how else than that He was crucified on Thursday?

Can you give me the name or title of a standard Greek/English Lexicon which says the word should be translated as Sabbath in either Luke 24:1 or Matt. 28:1?

Can you give me the name or the title of a book on Greek grammar which teaches that the word sabbaton should be translated as Sabbath in those same verses?

Third, have you checked to see how the Didache uses it?

It's important to note that 58 out of my 60 translations of the New Testament all translate that word the same way in those verses. That is quite an overwhelming judgment against translating it Sabbath.

This is a grotesque perversion of the W-O-R-D -- of God, namely. Shameless, fearless!

Yes, that is correct. This is the way it is translated in 58 out of 60 of my translations of that verse; the way all standard Greek/English Lexicons have it; and it is also the way Greeks wrote the word "week" in literature outside of the New Testament.

John3:17:
"Can you give me the name or title of a standard Greek/English Lexicon which says the word should be translated as Sabbath in either Luke 24:1 or Matt. 28:1?"

GE:
Forget about the word 'sabbath/s' first; I meant that jesus rose from the dead "on the First Day of the week" -- I meant that He rose on whatever day is meant here. Does it say He rose on this day? No, it does NOT! Jesus did NOT rise on "MIAN" whichever 'mian'. The text does not say a thing about Jesus 'rising' or rising 'on' this 'day' implied as being the 'first' of whichever.

John3:17,
"John3:17:
"Can you give me the name or title of a standard Greek/English Lexicon which says the word should be translated as Sabbath in either Luke 24:1 or Matt. 28:1?""

GE:
It's no cardinal text or 'argument' as far as Jesus' resurrection as such is concerned; NEVERTHELESS I have NEVER come accross a Greek 'lexicon' or whatever that explains the word 'sabbatohn' in Lk24:1 as something else than simply and honestly correctly, "the First Day of the week" = 'Monday'. This is a very, minor, 'issue'; it's NO 'issue' in fact.

Please show us your evidence from Greek-English Lexicons and from texts of Greek grammar. What is the name of a single well-known, highly respected Greek scholar who teaches that the word should be translated as "Sabbath" in those verses under discussion?

How do you explain the fact that the overwhelming majority--literally thousands, if you count all those involved in translation work of the many Bible published-- of professional translators of Koine Greek have chosen to translate it as "week" in those verses?

The first day of the week is Sunday, isn't it?

The point is, friend, do you have any evidence from the Greek-English Lexicons which speak of sabbaton as meaning "Sabbath" in Luke 24: 1 and Matt. 28: 1?

All of the ones I have say it refers to "week" in those verses. For instance, see Thayer's Lexicon, p. 566. Please tell how that reads if you have access to it.

Are you familiar with the Didache? It was written in the same Greek as the NT was written in, Koine. It was written about 150 AD. How does it use the word sabbaton?

If you have access to the Didache, see chapter 8. What does it say?

John3:17:
"Do you believe in and keep the seventh-day Sabbath? I myself do."

GE:
I do not believe 'IN' the Sabbath; I believe the Sabbath; with thankfulness in my heart to God, Yes, I do! Why do I believe the Sabbath "The Sabbath of the LORD your God" "the Lord (Jesus') Day"? Because on it, He rose from the dead. Praise God! THIS, was why the Church at first believed and 'kept' or 'sanctified' the Seventh Day Sabbath; Paul vividly describes this basis, reason and motive in Colossians 2 from verse 12 on up to verse 19, including, verses 16 and 17! Another Scripture manipulated wrangled and garbled by the untouchable saints who 'translate' the Bible for you and me. To war! soldier of Christ, to war!

John3:17:
"Are you familiar with the Didache? It was written in the same Greek as the NT was written in, Koine. It was written about 150 AD. How does it use the word sabbaton?"

GE:
Yes, I am. I had a big argument with my Greek lecturer on its dating which gives rise to the question of when the weekdays were given planetory names. It cannot be dated much later than 100AD; 150 is far too late. But that was decades ago; I cannot remember the details. All I still accept for certain is that the First Day is not therein mentioned or implied for having been the day of Jesus' resurrection or of the Church's keeping. That I'll still put my head on the block for.

I'm glad you believe that God still wants people to keep the seventh-day Sabbath.

Could you please explain your earlier remark which I quote below. Are you a "Sabbatharians"? I'd never heard of one of those. I suppose I am one of them since I believe in and keep the Sabbath, however.

I have the Teaching on my shelves, but will definitely not have the time to refresh memory. If you go to Book 5, Second Century', you will see I left space open where it should have fitted in chronologically. It's one of those things I don't believe I'll ever find the time to finish --- and there are many others!

This is just it, Gerhard; it does not mention the first day. It doesn't have to. Have you read the original Greek of the 8th chapter of the Didache?

The point is, how does it use the word sabbaton that is found in Matt. 28: 1 and Luke 24: 1, etc.?

I won't quibble about the dating of the document. Most authorities on the subject date it between 150 and 200 AD, but if you want to say it was dated closer to 100 AD, that is fine with me. The point is that its Greek is the same as in the NT. There's no difference.

From Wikipedia:

John3:17:
"The point is, friend, do you have any evidence from the Greek-English Lexicons which speak of sabbaton as meaning "Sabbath" in Luke 24: 1 and Matt. 28: 1?"

GE:
First: NO 'lexicon' is 'evidence'. The writers of the BEST 'lexicons' would be the first to confirm that. The ONLY 'Evidence' - for the 'good' lexicographers, -- they will tell you -- is the Scriptures.

Then, to repeat, I have never read a 'lexicon' or 'concordance' or 'dictionary' that says something else than that 'sabbatohn' in Lk24:1 means 'week'. "tehi miai (hehmerai) sabbatohn" = On the First Day of the week" --- what can be simpler or truer? That it means 'Sunday'? That is what I believe!

OK, well, please check out Didache 8.

If you don't have it in Greek, there is an online copy of it that you can refer to in the original language. I don't know if you are emotionally attached to the meaning being "sabbath" rather than week, but it is usually best to go by the evidence.

The evidence is overwhelming that it means "week" in the verses we are talking about.

Didache 8 uses the word sabbaton to mean "fifth day of the week." It cannot possibly mean "fifth of the sabbaths" because it is talking about the various days of the week. It names four different days of the week, and I do not know of anyone who has ever even attempted to dispute that fact. Every single translation of the Didache translates those words to mean the same thing. Not a single variation.

What day of the week do you suppose is "the fifth day of the week"?

1) You do not believe, then, that Lexicons or dictionaries are any kind of evidence as to the meaning of a word? You don't consult them?

2) Would you say the same thing about the dictionaries and Lexicons if you were studying the meaning of words in any other language?

3) You are quite right that all the authorities on the meaning of Greek words say the word sabbaton in Luke 24:1, etc., means "week."

Could you now tell why I should accept your word for it that it means "sabbath" in Luke 23:1, etc., given the overwhelming evidence that it means "week" as it is used there?

That is, considering that virtually all translations of the Bible give it that way, and the fact that Greek literature outside the NT also uses it to signify the days of the "week"?

John3:17:
The point is that its Greek is the same as in the NT. There's no difference."

GE:
Sure, you're right, 'there's no difference'! 8:1b uses sabbatOHn Pl Gn -- not, 'sabbatOn' Sg N or A, because it also uses it in the same way the Gospels use the term, namely, for 'week'. I once read someone who - to my understanding correctly - interpreted the Pl Gn: "as if counting from the Sabbath Day". So Didacheh: some fast the Second Day and Fifth (counted from the Sabbath Day), but you, on the Fourth Day (counted from the Sabbath Day) and on the Preparation Day (Friday).

PLURAL (idiomatically?) used for Singular. That is perhaps important for us to know. I know of nothing else that could be important to us.

John3:17:
"Could you now tell why I should accept your word for it that it means "sabbath" in Luke 23:1, etc., given the overwhelming evidence that it means "week" as it is used there?"

GE:
Luke 24:1???

Yes.

Luke3:17:
"What is your evidence that it should be translated as "sabbath"?"

GE:
The fact the basic meaning of the word is what the word as such indicates: "The Sabbath", closely related to 'seventh' or even 'last', although one may deem it as the first from which the following days are counted, as i have said above. The concept, "Sabbath" is determinative. In the Old Testament the word 'sabbath' may have nothing to do with 'The (weekly) Sabbath', like the 'sabbaths' of the Feasts -- which were 'floating-through-the-week-sabbaths', "metacsy"-'sabbaths', like those FOUR 'floating' or ceremonial 'feast'-sabbaths implied in Acts 13, or like the Passover-sabbath of Nisan 15 "Great Day" in Jn19:31.

OK, but your reference here is to "someone" who you are not even sure you are quoting correctly.

Do you expect that evidence to be accepted, yet the best Greek-English Lexicons and translations are to be ignored or rejected?